Thread: Bye Bye Balrogs
View Single Post
Old 08-24-2001, 02:08 AM   #33
Bob Wehadababyitsaboy
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 26
Bob Wehadababyitsaboy has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 21
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Bye Bye Balrogs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Was I correct in supposing that you propose a greater number of Balrogs early on whose numbers are whittled down dramatically?<hr></blockquote>
No, they got decimated in the end at the War of Wrath.

But please note that the dastardly NOTE refers to the Balrogs in the War of the Powers _where it was inserted_ and to which it particulary applies.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If so, when? Or, are you suggesting that the definition of Balrog might include entities of lesser power, not fitting the LoTR image of a great, fiery entity but greater than orcs, etc?<hr></blockquote>

Fiery entity---yes, but not necessarily in all cases.
Lesser power Balrogs---yes.
Greater than Orcs---yes.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If so, where does the Boldog fit in?<hr></blockquote>

Boldog as far as I know is an Ainu-Orc.
I have heard a suggestion or two that this possible title may be basis as a defintion for lesser Balrogs. The Author himself, while unsure as to if it is a title or name, still classifies it creature-wise as Ainu-Orc(s).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> have at it<hr></blockquote>
Is this to be a re-enactment of Arthur and the Black-knight?
And who is who here?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If you can provide some evidence for another possibility, please do so; we'd all be sincerely interested to see it.<hr></blockquote>

I have given the process by which I began the examination to HerenIstarion [who has the my truest answer in his possession], Mithadan and Tar-Elenion.
This is a cut and paste response I made:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The defintion and evolution of Fays is a good place to start, especially the later distinction between the original groupings of Fays [Nermir, Tavari, Nandini, Orossi, Oarni, Falmarini, Wingildi] and the differentation made where they are no longer Fays, and where Fay is defined as a child of the
Gods [later changed to Maia]---a reference here to the Tom Bombadil thread is in order I think. Add in the evolution of the Earthlings [closely tied with the now homeless and definitionless Spirits [who make a re-appearance as Ealar---see the Eagles question by JRRT which seperates Ealar and Maiar as non-equivalent. Follow it with the evolution of Orcs [which is inescapably tied with Balrogs in every reference and respect]. Of particular interest is the LoTR time-frame alteration where Orcs are the 'Spawn of the Earth'.<hr></blockquote>

Tar Elenion made this comment in private discussion of the topic in reply to some points I had made clear [or semi-clear anyway], and I ask him to forgive me for the presumption of quoting him without permission [non-repeated; as private email is private and I truly do apologize]. Since you already stated the conversation, I thought the least I could do is show that SOME type of answer was 'discerned'.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So we have the 7 Valaraukar (Maiarin Balrogs) as Balrog lords and other 'Incarnate Balrogs' (as the lesser Balrogs that could form the larger numbers?<hr></blockquote>

My reply was: 'That is essentially correct.'

I stated the point that began the examination for me---the offer of Balrog-Lordship to Hurin in the Lays as a point that may introduce perceptions as to what a Balrog really was or _could_ have been, and if the acceptance of the offer would have re-defined Hurin as a Balrog. It went from there back to the beginning to follow the processes.

I also mentioned to T.E. issues about the investment of Will into Balrogs, and questioned him as to why this would be necessary for Ainu who were as capable as Melkor in this without his aid, among other points of contention.

As a further suggestion: read the part about Trecherous gifts and lies and note that there is a differentation between those who followed him in the beginning and OTHERS [a natural presumption would be other Ainu, but this is _presumption_] who are 'corrupted' with these 'presents' and lies.

And now you have all the information needed to determine if the issue needs examination here or not since my suggestion alone was insufficient.

To quote the Geico Geko: 'Stop calling me.'


</p>
Bob Wehadababyitsaboy is offline   Reply With Quote