The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Thirty silver pennies in a fundamentally religious and Catholic work

Balfrog · 04-22-2018, 10:07 PM

Huinesoron

"If Tolkien had written 'thirty pounds', you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible. If he'd written about thirty silver spoons, you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible. If he'd written about nineteen silver pennies, you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible."

Not true. There would be only vague connections – yet still tangencies. One or even two tangencies aren't sufficient to put forward a credible theory (in general).

"The three words aren't distinct points which all have an innate Biblical connection - they are a single point which doesn't work at all if broken up."

Let's change the frame of reference of your single point to a new single point. That being the 'Judas Story'. Now we have five facts that possess associated tangencies. The three being '30' 'silver' 'coins'. The fourth being the 'full worth' of the money being put to good use (see below), and the fifth being an underlying 'theme of betrayal' causing the transaction in the first place. Five reasonably strong tangencies in total – which one might reasonably conclude form an important part of the 'Judas Story'.

So what significance does your 'single point' really have? It depends on your perspective and what you want to consider as the frame of reference of a 'single point' – yes/no? In other words your one point could be selected as '30 silver pennies' or the 'Judas Story'. Yet no matter what - there remain five fact-based tangencies in total. It is the number of 'tangencies' that are of importance – not the number or type of 'points' (which can be wholly arbitrary and dependent on the selector). That is where Ms. Seth is coming from – and I agree!

"we are told the full worth of the initial monetary loss, in the end, was put to good use"

"You're going to have to explain that if you want it to be believed, because so far as I can see, 12 pennies go to Bill Ferny (not noted as being a good cause), while the rest go to Merry and vanish from the story."

From TLotR - "But when news of the events at Bree came to Tom's ears, he sent them to Mr. Butterbur, who thus got five good beasts at a very fair price."

"and where did Tolkien explicitlt point out a connection between Butterbur and Judas? Or do you not think that King Solomon of Israel is a Catholic and religious figure?"

Ms. Seth's article doesn't directly connect Butterbur to Judas. I'm not sure where you're getting that from? There is a theme of betrayal – but Butterbur isn't the betrayer – nor is he likened to Judas.

Yes Solomon is a religious figure and is venerated among Christians - but I think we ought to be fair to Ms. Seth. Her entire essay was built around New Testament examples of the Catholic faith. And that's where I was coming from (sorry if I didn't make that clear). I remember, in another essay, she does discuss more ancient biblical connections and includes King Solomon. I think that would be the proper place to discuss your idea.

"In any case back to the issue at hand – if Morthoron can't or won't answer me, perhaps you can. In repetition then:

Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story?

Just give me an answer: Yes or No?"

"Yes."

Thank you for a straight answer.

The thing is after noting 'Yes' and 'such an obvious source' – you've kind of 'convicted' yourself. Any other suggestions must have a sounder basis with documented proof to overturn such an admission. For example: 'less two for food and lodgings' is pure speculation. Can you prove its two and not one or five? In other words, one can manipulate the math however one wishes to come to a value of '30'. A concocted mixture of amounts and mathematical calculations that cannot be related back to anything Tolkien documented or signed off on - is not good enough. Though I must applaud the logic and your effort!

Lastly Ms. Seth has precedence on her side. How can we brush that aside?

A specific physical object essential to Tolkien's sect of Christianity has definitely been deliberately included (namely Lembas modeled as sacramental bread). Moreover he tells us that the most important reason for its inclusion in his tale is the faith aspect. Indeed, there are more tangencies for the 'Judas Story' than the 'Sacramental Bread Story' within TLotR – as far as I can see. If Tolkien hadn't specifically confirmed it – no doubt that a waybread/religious connection would have been thought of as a ludicrous suggestion! Eh?

The fact that she has provided documentary proof that the work is 'fundamentally Catholic' and provided as precedence an example of Tolkien deliberately including a faith-based article in the book – should count for a great deal in any final judgement – that being yours, mine or any independent arbiter.

Morthoron

As usual – you evaded the question. Apologies will be accepted - provided you give an answer.

So once again:

Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story?

Just give me an answer: Yes or No?

If he wasn't – then by Godsteeth tell me why and provide some evidence?

If he was - then tell me why he put thirty silver coins into the story and why he decided to leave that in – even after editing?

I think I've said enough to Huinesoron to cover your points. Your post is, as usual, full of obsessive nonsense allegations. Once again, we can cover the 'shekels and stoned ox' in another thread. As a gentle reminder - this one is about 'thirty silver pennies' !

04-22-2018, 10:07 PM	#19
Balfrog Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 87	Huinesoron "If Tolkien had written 'thirty pounds', you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible. If he'd written about thirty silver spoons, you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible. If he'd written about nineteen silver pennies, you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible." Not true. There would be only vague connections – yet still tangencies. One or even two tangencies aren't sufficient to put forward a credible theory (in general). "The three words aren't distinct points which all have an innate Biblical connection - they are a single point which doesn't work at all if broken up." Let's change the frame of reference of your single point to a new single point. That being the 'Judas Story'. Now we have five facts that possess associated tangencies. The three being '30' 'silver' 'coins'. The fourth being the 'full worth' of the money being put to good use (see below), and the fifth being an underlying 'theme of betrayal' causing the transaction in the first place. Five reasonably strong tangencies in total – which one might reasonably conclude form an important part of the 'Judas Story'. So what significance does your 'single point' really have? It depends on your perspective and what you want to consider as the frame of reference of a 'single point' – yes/no? In other words your one point could be selected as '30 silver pennies' or the 'Judas Story'. Yet no matter what - there remain five fact-based tangencies in total. It is the number of 'tangencies' that are of importance – not the number or type of 'points' (which can be wholly arbitrary and dependent on the selector). That is where Ms. Seth is coming from – and I agree! "we are told the full worth of the initial monetary loss, in the end, was put to good use" "You're going to have to explain that if you want it to be believed, because so far as I can see, 12 pennies go to Bill Ferny (not noted as being a good cause), while the rest go to Merry and vanish from the story." From TLotR - "But when news of the events at Bree came to Tom's ears, he sent them to Mr. Butterbur, who thus got five good beasts at a very fair price." "and where did Tolkien explicitlt point out a connection between Butterbur and Judas? Or do you not think that King Solomon of Israel is a Catholic and religious figure?" Ms. Seth's article doesn't directly connect Butterbur to Judas. I'm not sure where you're getting that from? There is a theme of betrayal – but Butterbur isn't the betrayer – nor is he likened to Judas. Yes Solomon is a religious figure and is venerated among Christians - but I think we ought to be fair to Ms. Seth. Her entire essay was built around New Testament examples of the Catholic faith. And that's where I was coming from (sorry if I didn't make that clear). I remember, in another essay, she does discuss more ancient biblical connections and includes King Solomon. I think that would be the proper place to discuss your idea. "In any case back to the issue at hand – if Morthoron can't or won't answer me, perhaps you can. In repetition then: Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story? Just give me an answer: Yes or No?" "Yes." Thank you for a straight answer. The thing is after noting 'Yes' and 'such an obvious source' – you've kind of 'convicted' yourself. Any other suggestions must have a sounder basis with documented proof to overturn such an admission. For example: 'less two for food and lodgings' is pure speculation. Can you prove its two and not one or five? In other words, one can manipulate the math however one wishes to come to a value of '30'. A concocted mixture of amounts and mathematical calculations that cannot be related back to anything Tolkien documented or signed off on - is not good enough. Though I must applaud the logic and your effort! Lastly Ms. Seth has precedence on her side. How can we brush that aside? A specific physical object essential to Tolkien's sect of Christianity has definitely been deliberately included (namely Lembas modeled as sacramental bread). Moreover he tells us that the most important reason for its inclusion in his tale is the faith aspect. Indeed, there are more tangencies for the 'Judas Story' than the 'Sacramental Bread Story' within TLotR – as far as I can see. If Tolkien hadn't specifically confirmed it – no doubt that a waybread/religious connection would have been thought of as a ludicrous suggestion! Eh? The fact that she has provided documentary proof that the work is 'fundamentally Catholic' and provided as precedence an example of Tolkien deliberately including a faith-based article in the book – should count for a great deal in any final judgement – that being yours, mine or any independent arbiter. Morthoron As usual – you evaded the question. Apologies will be accepted - provided you give an answer. So once again: Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story? Just give me an answer: Yes or No? If he wasn't – then by Godsteeth tell me why and provide some evidence? If he was - then tell me why he put thirty silver coins into the story and why he decided to leave that in – even after editing? I think I've said enough to Huinesoron to cover your points. Your post is, as usual, full of obsessive nonsense allegations. Once again, we can cover the 'shekels and stoned ox' in another thread. As a gentle reminder - this one is about 'thirty silver pennies' !