[A Little Green]

I still have doubts about one thing regarding the scheme of agreeing signals for the Dead Thread vote (as in, empower X if Z was guilty, empower Y if Z was innocent, and so on). There was talk about putting choices for the dead "in different bandwagons" for increased flexibility, which I think is absolutely necessary for something like this to work. I am doubtful about the timing, however. In order for this to work, the living would have to have more or less voted first for there to be any "wagons" to place the choices for the dead in. At the same time, Agan's hypothetical point about Europeans in the Dead Thread was a valid one (especially as, at present, we do seem to have a European majority there): the deadline is 5 AM Finnish time, an hour or two less for the Danes and Brits and whoever else. Which means that European dead people can't really be expected to be around to wait for the village's instructions on which people in which wagons they should cast their votes to in order to relay a message. Can we realistically expect the village to (at least almost) finish voting hours before the deadline? Or would the dead leave their voting entirely in the hands of whoever of them happened to be around at deadline, whether wolf or not?

Originally Posted by Nog

Third: the dead thread will be confusing as well. With three possible deaths per day/night -cycle and them being able to check only one during the same interval there will be more unknowns than known people in there (as the Night-kills aren't automatically innocents).

Also this.

Then to Agan and Lommy's spat. First, we should bear in mind that those two are old friends and thus very good at annoying each other, and it was absurd o'clock at night so both were probably tired, too. I'm saying this because I think why it escalated had as much to do with these two factors as with werewolf. That isn't to say there wasn't other stuff going on too, though.

Basically, the whole thing started with this post by Agan:

Originally Posted by Agan

"We" obviously as in "us villagers", not as in "me and my wolf pack", duh!

This relating to her earlier "if we only kill Europeans" line. Lommy's argument is as follows:

Originally Posted by Lommy

This still exchange related to this post by Agan sounds rather fishy to me. So, as I read it, Agan is playing with scenarios and makes a joking example of the village only killing (= lynching) Europeans. Morm makes fun of her by implying she actually suggested doing that (since she's European herself, it's kind of double crazy idea). Agan misunderstands that morm is (half-jokingly) calling her out on saying "killing" instead of "lynching", which would imply she's one of the wolves (the term "killing" usually referring to Night kills) and she continues the joke from that angle. Basically I find it curious that Agan would interpret morm's comments in a way that would lead her to make a joking clarification about not making a Freudian slip about being a wolf. Like, I don't know why an innocent player would look at morm's comment from that angle. (Morm please clarify if I'm the one misreading your comment to Agan.)

So Lommy wasn't saying Agan's "me and my wolf pack" was a slip (which would be a stupid argument) but rather that her interpretation of morm's comment suggests a wolfish perspective. To which Agan reacts with these:

Originally Posted by Agan

ThinLOLmien is back! So I'm, what, your second oldest friend and suddenly you don't understand why I'd look at something from the villain's point of view? I understood morm's meaning perfectly and chose to continue the joke as I did because it's fun and joking about being a wolf is the closest I can get to being one.

Seriously though, just what would a wolf gain from saying "Hello I'm a wolf" when it would lead the other pack straight to her door? I'd imagine in a game like this, they will go to lengths to look as ordinary as possible, and I just don't understand why you think I'd have reacted like that as a wolf. Granted I'm tired but your trigger-happy jump is so poorly reasoned it genuinely annoys me and gives you a free ride to the top of my suspect list.

Originally Posted by Agan

++Lommy

She saw a straw and grasped at it.

Her village spokesperson idea was decent but I'm partly kind of offended that she chose to question my intelligence by holding a joke against me and partly suspicious of her "ERMAHGERD SLIP!!!111 Did ya see a SLIP!!!111" approach which would probably feel forced to me even if it wasn't about me.

I'm still in favour of the no-lynch, but I wouldn't mind seeing Lommy bite the dust.

This seems like a very strong reaction to an argument that may or may not have been correct but was, at least by Day 1 standards, decently reasoned. The question is, though, whether all of it can be attributed to Agan being tired and having a temper. It is also unclear whether she mistook Lommy's meaning or whether she presented it in that light to make the case look shoddier than it was - for Lommy wasn't suspecting Agan because of the "me and my wolf pack" but because of her interpretation of morm's comment.

Lommy starts getting annoyed too, and to be fair I can't really blame her:

Originally Posted by Lommy

1) I dislike my I'm-not-taking-myself-too-seriously personality being used as a way to discredit my arguments (like, I may be chatty and benevolent and a bit of a clown, but it doesn't mean I'm stupid and you know it and you're trying to use it to your advantage by framing this as "silly Lommy is being silly again" and that irks me)

2) I didn't suggest you intentionally said "hello I'm a wolf" (even though - now that you played the "why would a wolf say that" card I might reconsider...), I suggest you made a Freudian slip of sorts by accidentally revealing your wolvish perspective. And that has absolutely nothing to do with whether you fancy being a villain or not.

3) Well, you also cemented your - rather whimsically assigned; it was the typical Day1 level of reasoning - place on the top of my suspicion list by being so defensive. If you were innocent, you wouldn't be half as annoyed by me remarking on your wolvish perspective, and I suspect you're just enjoying your wolfing in this game with a nice pack and even the tiniest prospect that your enjoyment might be cut short both makes you fight back and gets on your nerves because you dislike being "busted" on something so trivial, especially if you indeed intentionally chose to comment on morm's joke from that angle and I was accusing you on the wrong grounds.

++Agan

Possible interpretations, then? Wolf-on-wolf? Not likely. They got too genuinely angry with each other, and besides, I don't think an open fight with a packmate would be a sensible strategy in this game, at this point. Wolf-on-wolf between wolves from different packs? Possible. Innocent-on-innocent? Sadly also possible. Wolf and innocent? If one of these two is a wolf I think Agan is a likelier candidate. Lommy started with an argument against Agan, then got offended by the belittling way Agan talked about her. (This might happen with Lommy whatever her role so I don't think it tells us much about her alignment.) Agan, meanwhile, got offended by being suspected on what she thought were flimsy grounds - which, while annoying, shouldn't provoke a reaction quite that strong. I also agree with Cabbie and Shasta that Agan's retaliatory suspicion of Lommy looks a bit off. Of course it's possible that an innocent Agan mixed personal feelings with suspicion (that does happen), but I don't know if she would really fall into that trap. However, trying to turn a personal quarrel into something other players could latch onto is something an Aganwolf might want to do.

Another thing - wolves have no more reason to grasp at straws in this game than anyone else. A wolf making up a case just to look like they're suspecting somebody doesn't make sense because they, too, need to hunt wolves. And as for genuinely making a case on (too) little evidence, that can be done by wolves and innocents alike. Therefore, "she's grasping at straws" isn't a very strong argument against anyone in this game.

Originally Posted by Legate

Aside from the "tie or not to tie" discussion and so on, of the moments that "stood out", the only weird thing about the Agan-Morm exchange to me was Greenie's reaction to it, "defensive" one:

Just kinda defensive, because I think it seemed pretty clear that it was not meant the way Greenie is interpreting it???

You lost me here, Legate. Defensive of what? It was not meant in what way?

Originally Posted by Legate

Greenie - just too happy with too many smileys at some point; she had reasonable points, but she is not stupid. I have no idea what to make of the comment to Agan I mentioned above, although now it seems to me like that was rather random. But that's just the sauce; bottom line being, her "I am the nice clever helpful girl next door" attitude is sort of making me wonder whether it is genuine. Probably one of my choices for vote toDay.

Awesome, can I now join the esteemed club of people who get suspected for their use of smileys? Also, "she had reasonable points, but she is not stupid" is probably the best thing anyone's ever said about me. Seriously though, all I can say is that suspecting me because I act nice is rather like suspecting you because you write long, confusing posts. Oh wait. I've actually seen people do that.


EDIT: x-ed since my last. Writing a novel takes ages! I think I understand George R. R. Martin better now.