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Old 07-21-2012, 04:55 PM   #24
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jallanite View Post
“I would have thought” is far from crystal clear. “I would have thought you would have made yourself” is even less clear. What is the point of all those woulds? To avoid making yourself clear?
The point seems clear enough to me: given that Doug admitted he is raising the question of misogyny in his reader's minds, one might assume he would be very careful about choosing his phrasing here (especially being a fan of Christopher Tolkien after all, as he states he is) -- but yet not very long after the book is published, Doug admits he would like to alter certain phrasing.

And yes, I don't think Doug considered this argument well enough before he published his book -- in general, and not just because of certain examples of phrasing.

Quote:
You appear to be attempting to make an implication while trying to look like you are not making an implication. No the book does not give the opinion you are seeking, nor the opposite opinion. Kane is very careful to not attribute any opinions to Christopher Tolkien beyond occasionally quoting Christopher Tolkien. It would be a critical sin to attribute an opinion which cannot be substantiated.

You want Kane to lie.
No, the point with the section you quoted is that Doug offers plenty of his own opinions in the book and in these threads -- so why didn't he give the opinion in his book that he doesn't think there was purpose behind this 'clear pattern'?

Again if clarity is wanted (and why not), I just wonder why he chose to readily enough give that opinion in discussion, but not in the book.

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Maybe the reason Galin continues on this track is that Galin fears that Christopher Tolkien “unconsciously and unintentionally revealed that he has something against women.”
Well for the record, I fear no such thing


Quote:
Kane, in this thread very carefully wrote:
Regarding the issue of the reduction of female characters, I continue to believe that the evidence shows that there is a clear pattern of this being a result of the edits done. I obviously have no way of knowing whether this was done intentionally, or not, and I did not mean to imply in any way that I believed that it was (I honestly doubt very much that it was).
Galin attempts to twist this to mean that “this still leaves it open that you maybe think Christopher Tolkien unconsciously and unintentionally revealed that he has something against women,” despite Kane’s clear statement that “I did not mean to imply in any way that I believed that it was (I honestly doubt very much that it was).”
That's not a twist Jallanite: rather it takes Doug at his word but notes that there is a distinction that, as far as I know, he has never commented on. For all I know right now 'maybe' Doug does hold this opinion. I could have worded things better perhaps -- or simply put the matter in question form as I often enough do, and maybe by not doing so the statement seemed more to accuse Doug of something rather than raise the distinction; again even despite my use of maybe above.

There was no intentional accusation, but (and not that anyone cares, I know) recently someone stated that he/she thought I asked too many questions (I can link to the thread if anyone actually does care), and as I had just put a statement into question form (in the same post), instead I thought I would make my 'incidentally' comment a statement rather, knowing that Doug could easily speak to my 'maybe' if he desired.

But anyway, I sincerely think that only going so far as to say there was no conscious purpose does not necessarily mean that the person giving that opinion still might not believe there was some unconscious 'revelation' here.

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I do not see that Kane can say more much more honestly. I do not see that Galin can say much more honestly. What does Galin want Kane to say honestly? I don’t think Galin is able to say.
If you want it more directly: Doug do you believe Christopher Tolkien unintentionally revealed that he has something against women?

You (Doug) don't have to answer obviously, even if you have an opinion to that; but again it's not necessarily the same thing as stating that you don't believe the 'reduction' in female characters was on purpose.

Quote:
Neither Galin nor Kane (and probably no-one viewing this thread) knows Christopher Tolkien well enough to be able to honestly say that at some level Christopher Tolkien is never a sexual bigot. Even if they did say it, they might just be wrong.

I accuse Galin of vicious innuendo which demands a response that almost no-one can honestly give. If Galin is really honestly inferring what he seems to be interring, then perhaps he ought to blame himself for so inferring, if he finds the inferences he make so troubling to him.
I'm rather, and simply, looking for an opinion Jallanite. Earlier Doug gave his opinion about 'purpose' -- despite that he yet can't say he knows for sure, as he doesn't know Christopher Tolkien well enough -- and I'm asking for an opinion about a distinction that goes beyond that.

I've heard plenty of opinions about Christopher Tolkien in various threads, from people who don't know him.

Quote:
I read Kane’s book and the inference that Christopher Tolkien was purposely attempting to get back at women by reducing their role in The Silmarillion never occurred to me. For me, it was Galin who raised that as a possibility. I took it as a given that the reduction of female roles was simply part of Christopher Tolkien often preferring a shorter version in the published Silmarillion over a longer version, and agree with Kane that this was mostly unfortunate.
Well, while that may be true for you given the circumstances here, if you or anyone will read (or read again) the linked thread, it will be obvious that I am not the only one who raised the question of implied misogyny, and am certainly not even the first to do so in the linked thread.

Last edited by Galin; 07-21-2012 at 06:00 PM.
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