[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't get the problem with the Girdle of Melian. We aren't talking about Spanx. If you take the verb formof gird it has rather more positive associations with Knighthood which incidentally I think the gifts in Lorien to Boromir and the younger hobbits are more significant than they may fiirst appear (I am very slowly writing a paper on this so I will spare you further ramblings).

Oh, it's not the 'girdle' that bothers me; nor it's reference to a woman. I know Tolkien well enough to understand that he often was recovering an early meaning of word almost lost and he cared little if it required educating readers about the lost meaning. And we've all had our fun following Aragon, Legolas and Eomer in the van. And I know what 'gird up one's loins' means.

I have a philosophical objection to the idea that one can barricade or wall oneself in from danger or evil. I know this was well the case with many medieval walled cities and indeed with many 'gated' communities in the US these days. I believe that action simply exacerbates the social problems. The moment we claim some places are bad, we also fall prey to treating everyone there as bad and start expecting trouble. And vice versa, everyone in a good place as good. It's not a concept that resolves the difficulties but which makes rapproachment more difficult. So it is hard for me to see this as a positive activity and to regard the character who does it as a champion. There is in LotR--well, I think so, anyway--some suggestion that Galadriel's attempt to hold back time in Lorien was a mistake.

Idrll is perhaps the one female character who is unreservedly admirable and it is her wisdom and preparedness that save some of her people and without which even the valour of Glorfindel et all would have been futile.

Indeed, she does have the foresight to build a way out of the enclosed city, which makes an intriguing contrast with Galadriel and Melian, but the actual building of it and escape through it is little dwelt upon. It's there and a salvation, but it is almost little more than a plot device. She is also largely represented as a possession and one of the motivations for Maeglin's malice and betrayal. Her character is admirable but her role in the narrative, grand as it is, is ultimately driven by men's attitude towards her: she cannot stop Maeglin, only escape from him. Maybe that's all the agency most women have ever had in history. I really wish we heard more from her. And perhaps this is one of the problems with discussing the Silm: it is not truly a novel with characterisation explored through dialogue, so how are we to evaluate the characters who are not thoroughly represented as characters are in realistic novels.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually, Beth, I rather think you are a bit– or rather, perhaps, not strict enough– I doubt “talking about a man” was meant to be stretched that far. After all, it tremendously limits the topics women are “allowed” to discuss– which was surely not the original intention. (Besides, isn’t the point of the test pretty much that it *shouldn’t* be terribly hard to pass?)

Originally Posted by Agan

There are different versions, but I don't think B-berry's (I should probably stop using this acronym because I pronounce it 'Bieberry' in my head) interpretation was off. Of course women can talk about men, but since the male characters don't only talk about women either, it would be justified to show women speaking of something that adds something to them as characters instead of to the male characters.

Oh, I hope that doesn't make me as yummy as a berry pie.

Yes, that's what I meant. The conversation is more a plot device that an expose or exploration of their characters.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I'll just leave off by saying that if Tolkien fails in his presentation of what one perceives as a "strong" female character, I am not at all confident that the movies, geared as they are toward mass modern audience appeal, will accomplish that better.

Aye, there's the rub. I happen to think that Ioreth is one of Tolkien's most intriguing female characters and as best as I can recall there's nary a sign of her in PJ's RotK.