[lindil]

First the Original Question "Why are the Vanyar higher than thr Noldor, is not dependant on the Noldorin rebellion question. We really should have a seperate thread for 'Were the noldor justified in their rebellion?'

But since we don't...

All numbered points are from Iarhen's above post.

"1. I can't tell otherwise about the closeness of the Vanyar to the Valar. But, even though Manwe and VArda reflected Eru's light, they did not sahre the knowledge of Eru. Again, the Vanyar were closest to the Valar, but in terms of Eru's affection, I stand my point (go back to the last paragraphs of my previous post)."

The Vanyar's highness had nothing to do with Ainurian 'affection'. Of that we can be sure. What it was based on [and the texts give dissenters no leeway on this point] we have only scant evidence. Their holiness, and blessedness along with their personal preferences for poetry and spears.
In the LQ1 text they alone are titled 'High Elves'.

It simply comes down to I believe, that there holiness and blessedness were descriptives of being above all other Elves, peaceful, spiritual, not given to quarellsomeness and seeking out that which is Highest. As is shown by their dwelling on taniquetil and with the King and quenn of the Valar.


"2. Even though the Valar told the Noldor that their quest was doomed to failure, the Noldor were in a difficult position. First, how can they trust the Valar after one of them had done so much ill against their kin? Melkor, greatest among the Valar (then), had killed thier King and stolen their greates posessions.How can you trust someone when other one, of the same kin and nature, had done so much evil against you?"
"

Of course not. That argument [proposed in similar form by Morgoth to Feanor, by the way!] is based upon saying the Noldor had no ability to discriminate.

Did any of the other Valar show any potential or reason to be judged as having ill-will or intent to the Noldor? No they had given much asking nothing in return.


" how can you trust..."


You read your history and ask yourself, have any of the valar ever acted unjustly against me? Answer NO, unless you are an already deluded Feanor.

2b."And more to the favour of the Noldor, even though they were warned taht their quest was doomed to failure, they still fought the battle. Stubborness? No. Heroship, more likely. They were risking their lives and their eternal existence, dont forget that."

No they were not risking their eternal existances. Stubbornes? Yes.

Yes the Noldor were heroic as the crossing of the Helcaraxe and many later events show. But the old saying 'discretion is the better part of valour' certainly applies here. The Noldor showed very little.

It says that after the Prophecy of the North that many would not turn back because of guilt at the kinslaying. That is a guilty consciece occluding reason. Not heroism. Was Feanor heroic when he abandoned the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin? Was was Feanor heroic when he then burned the ships [and the sone he refused to let stay in Valinor], was Feanor heroic, when he knew with the foreknowledge of Death that his sons could never overthrow Morgoth, but he told them to keep to their diabolical oath anyway?

Sorry, Feanor was a genius who became tragically deluded by Morgoth, by power, grief, possesiveness and anger. He was no longer thinking or acting rationally and everyone under his influence became to a greater or lesser degree similarly deluded.

Many woke up more or less, and the fact that Maedhros asked forgiveness for the Burning of the Ships shows much. But do you think the 3'C' brothers agreed with that?


3. I can't say anything about the murdering of thier kin. But both the Noldor and the Vanyar are guilty of the same sin. In what way? The vanyar knew of the doom of the Noldor, and they didnt do anything. They were guilty in a passive way of the slaugthering of the Noldor. In waht way? Because the Vanyar did not help them when they were most needed, and chose to say with the elf-slayer kin (the VAlar). It's a sin that the Valar themselves committed. Didn't Morgoth kill most of the Noldor kin? Melkor was a Valar. So, in the same way that the Noldor were found guilty of slaying the Teleri when only some of them did it, that's the same way the Valar are guilty. One of the Valar killed the Noldor. So, who's the greatest sinner? The Valar, in their great knowledge, still murdered. The Noldor, in their need, despair and desolation, too. The Vanyar, in a passive way, also. Not an argument you can use.

that is very upside down reasoning I think.

Might as well make Eru guilty for it all. HE created morgoth after all!

You must discern the role of free-will here.

The Vanyar can not be blamed for obeying the Valar without turning the Valar into something Tolkien never invisaged [after Lost Tales anyway]. That is as dubious and capricious Gods. The Valar were meant by Eru to help and guide the Children of Iluvatar. And also they were given certain policing, legislative and judicial powers,
By God Himself. The Vanyar were being obedient, trusting and patient.

If one wants to posit a morally neutral LEgendarium where all virtues are equal. Like heroism being equal to obedience to the valar you of course can, but it is no longer JRRT's legendarium, it is your own.


4. "And waiting for the green light is an argument that can be used in the favour of the Vanyar? That sounds more like cowardness."

It may sound that way, but as per above post it is clearly believed by JRRT to be the higher virtue.

Should every private in an army just go an attack at will, without waiting for the command from those who have been entrusted with the big picture and have far more information than the private [or captain or major etc...]? or should all forces be co-ordinated most effectively?

The Valar had subdued and imprisoned Melkor before, why on earth would the Noldor not think they would do it again? And they would know that they did it specifically for the Elves! Even Morgoth 'never forgot that'.

5. "But of the two sets of brothers that the Vanyar had in Aman, it was only one of them, the Noldor, that needed their help.

Do not confuse stupidity with despair, sadness and valianthood."

True the Noldor needed there help, in coming back to their senses, as Olwe tried to help them do.

Heck they could even have asked the Teleri to help them build ships!!!

And then gone on their way! Feanor was crazed by this point, as per above.

And what did the Noldor as a race have to 'despair' over? Prior to the kinslaying all but one was alive, they lost the Silmarills and the light od the 2 Trees it is true, but did the Vanyar or Teleri, maia or valar despair?

Despair is for those without hope. The Noldor had plenty to hope for had they paused and reflected.

A- The valar were certain to take care of Morgoth sooner or later and probably sooner.
B- They were still in the Noontide of their powers and had they cooled off, the Valar would have let them return to M-E sans curse.

Also re: the loss of the trees... they had lived in starlight before and were said to be quite fond of it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]!

6. "And maybe the Noldor should have chosen the blessing you speak of in the end of your post, but it was a blessing of the Valar. Probably, unknowingly, the Noldor chose a greater blessing: the one coming from Eru."

you will have to elaborate on that one.

In my final analysis, I agree with Obloquy, all the Noldor did [interms of the goal of overthrowing Morgoth] amounted to zero.

Heck it was even an Adan that killed of Glaurung! They did kill a few Balrogs in Gondolin, so zero is too harsh. Very little.

Kept him occupied, yes.

But that only postponed the true reckoning which needed the intervention of the army of the Maia, Vanyar and the repentant noldor.

From what we know of the Valar, they always responded to Morgoth or Sauron's machinations.

They would have responded to the plight of the Elves in Beleriand and the newly born men also.

Did the Noldor do many great, valiant and wonderous deeds while in Beleriand? Yes, many: the rescuing of Maedhros by Fingon. The battle of Fingolfin with Morgoth. The building of Gondolin, the slaying of Gothmog and at least 1 or 2 other balrogs.
The forging of Glamdring and sting. Finrod's befriending of Men [and later the other kings and princes].

But in terms of effective weakening of Morgoth, the slaying of the balrogs may have been the only long range good they did militarily. [not counting Turin's slaying Glaurung].

In regards to Morgoth's 'might' and when the Valar would choose to attack. It is I think specious to say that they had to wait. Why? they did not have to wait in the war of the powers? You just evacuate Beleriand [as had to happen anyway.] Presumably Tolkus and the other more warrior-esque Valar such as Orome and Aule were not even involved in the War of wrath, so Morgoth could have been subdued with them far sooner.

As for the collective guilt of the Noldor, it had to do with refusing to seek the pardon of the Valar [and presumably the teleri] and running off to be their own kings, while leaving a literal bloody mess behind them. The curse aspect of their departure was tied solely to that.

If they had returned, asked forgiveness, and then said 'we still really wish to go', the valar would have let them.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]