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Old 04-07-2005, 08:42 AM   #20
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
But there is also something else going on in this classification of Men into three kinds - it is the same classification that we find in the Elves of the First Age - the ‘High’ Elves who went to Valinor, the ‘Middle’ Elves, the Elves of the Twighlight, the Sindar, who began the journey but left off part way, & the Avari, the Unwilling, Elves of the Darkness, who refused the Light. Faramir is projecting the history (& the choices) of the Elder Children upon the Younger. Again an idealisation of the past to the detriment of the present. Even the ‘Blessing’ he proclaims before meat looks backwards
I thought I’d go back to what davem posted at the beginning of the thread as it has started me thinking about the nature of Gondor as a state. The way Faramir categorises Men is indeed reminiscent of how the Elves are categorised. The Numenoreans are ‘high’ just as the Eldar are high, and the symbol of Numenor is used by Men instead of the symbol of Valinor.

Just as the different groups of Elves count themselves as ‘kin’ or not, so do Men, or at least, the Men of Gondor do this. The Rohirrim seem more concerned with their everyday existence, and though they revere and respect their ancestors, they see the past as very much behind them, as seen in Eomer’s wonder at meeting Aragorn. In Rohan the old stories are still simple tales, whereas in Gondor they seem to have taken on a scripture-like quality.

I definitely get the sense that Gondor at some point in history had been trying to follow the Elven ideal; Men seem to have been sub-divided in the eyes of Gondorians into various cultural categories, those who did not leave for Numenor are referred to as ‘refusing the call’, and then become ‘of the Twilight’. Most importantly for the eventual decline of Gondor, Men spend far too long devoted to preserving the past and not nurturing the future.

Quote:
'Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things.
What has happened in Gondor is that the people have mingled with the ‘middle’ Men, and this seems to have been necessary, as their own peoples were diminishing, not raising families but spending their years contemplating the nature of life and death, the very notions which eventually destroyed the fabric of Numenor in the first place. It seems that even the spirit of Numenor would have been destroyed had the exiles not mingled with other Men.

In essence, it is a good thing that the former Numenoreans are now long fallen from their high positions, as their culture would have died out long ago. This would eventually mean that Aragorn would have had no Gondor to return to, no people to lead. These people had to accept that fighting was necessary to their survival, that it was more important than learning, and perhaps they do indeed accept this; we have to remember we are hearing these words through Faramir, a man who would much rather be learning than fighting, who seems to yearn for the past, and who clearly has read more than most on the history of his country.

Quote:
It is not said that evil arts were ever practised in Gondor, or that the Nameless One was ever named in honour there; and the old wisdom and beauty brought out of the West remained long in the realm of the sons of Elendil the Fair, and they linger there still. Yet even so it was Gondor that brought about its own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking that the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.

'Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anarion had no heir.
So Faramir acknowledges that the Numenoreans in exile declined and did not progress and so their culture eventually withered. Like the Elves, they sought to preserve, and like them too, they dreamed, but a little too much. Men are mortal and do not have the endless time that the Elves possess. By seeking to preserve the past, and indeed to live in the past, just as the Elves do, they brought about the decline of their own culture. And these scenes are played out in the damaged and derelict beauty of Ithilien with its forgotten water gardens, so even the surroundings talk of what once was. But these things, though works of art and beauty, are symbols of a culture which had turned its back on the ever present danger it faced.

I thought I’d pick up on this point as it brings up some interesting ideas about the state of Gondor, not just on the character of Faramir. This chapter reveals a lot about what kind of place Gondor is, and at this point in the narrative it is important to know exactly who and what we are rooting for; soon we will be plunged into the terror of the wilds once more, and before long we will be at Minas Tirith itself.

Quote:
Men now fear and misdoubt the Elves, and yet know little of them. And we of Gondor grow like other Men, like the men of Rohan; for even they, who are foes of the Dark Lord, shun the Elves and speak of the Golden Wood with dread.

'Yet there are among us still some who have dealings with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to Lorien, seldom to return. Not I. For I deem it perilous now for mortal man wilfully to seek out the Elder People. Yet I envy you that have spoken with the White Lady."
I think that Faramir fully recognises exactly why Gondor declined, not all his words betray idealism, some betray hard facts about the history of his home, and he is also justified in thinking the Elves to be perilous if some who leave Gondor to seek them never return. Yet he sees that friendship with the Elves is something high and noble, and he can see that there is something essentially good in being more like the Rohirrim; at least his people still have the memory of older glories, and can move forward as Gondorians, not Numenoreans in exile.
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