[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As an aside, an old friend of mine is firmly convinced that all of the changes mentioned in Morgoth's Ring were, in fact, what Tolkien intended. In other words, Ea was always round, Orcs were not corrupted Elves, etc.

I can't say "all" the changes -- or rather, I won't necessarily say all the changes, given the complexity of the matter -- but concerning these ideas, I agree.

Or one could argue, for instance, that Tolkien's world was both once flat, and always round, depending upon a given tradition.

If asked, he would expound upon how the mythologies would have been revised to accommodate these changes.

If asked, I would rather blather about how certain notions were to be saved -- by altering the transmission theory and making the Legendarium a multi-perspective collection.

I do not recall how my friend came down on the "transmission" methodology that Tolkien would ultimately have settled upon. In my view, Tolkien himself never decided. If you look, one can find hints that JRRT had never even completely rejected the Aelfwine/Pengoloth idea

As far as I recall (at the moment [!]), Elfwine "sailed" after the later 1950's phase, to be, in my opinion, slowly replaced by the Bilbo/Numenorean tradition.


Ramble Alert


In 1962 a Numenor element is ultimately published in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil: "...No. 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenorean, concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Númenorean tale of Túrin and Mim the Dwarf."

And in The Lord of the Rings (revised edition in the 1960s), Bilbo becomes part of the transmission of texts dealing with the Elder Days -- not only through Tolkien's newly added "Note On The Shire Records", but also in a new statement found in Appendix A, The Return of the King.

Also, here's an interesting revision I think: Quenta Silmarillion (the LQ2 text): "Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs of [the Noldor>] Númenor concerning the world of old;..."

Another late note: in note 17 to The Shibboleth of Feanor (written in 1968 or later) it is stated that the Silmarillion is not an Eldarin title or work, but a compilation, probably made in Númenor: "... which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin' was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age..." and concludes (concerning the compiled Silmarillion, and the four great tales in prose, and seemingly the account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils). "All however are "Mannish works."

Tolkien's parenthetical note above "in prose" is interesting here with respect to The Lay of the Children of Húrin, as Dírhaval wrote in verse and his work was said to be rendered into prose -- by Elfwine according to the "older" transmission idea -- but a prose version is now possibly made by an unknown Númenórean.

1968 Published in Vinyar Tengwar 48, we find the Synopsis of Pengoloð's Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi: "The following account is an abbreviation of a curious document, preserved in the archives of Gondor by strange chance (or by many such chances) from the Elder Days, but in a copy apparently made in Númenor not long before its downfall: probably by or at the orders of Elendil himself, when selecting such records as he could hope to store for the journey to Middle-earth. This one no doubt owed its selection and its copying, first to Elendil's own love of the Eldarin tongues and of the works of the loremasters who wrote about their history; but also to the unusual contents of this disquisition in Quenya: Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi: The Elvish Fingers and Numerals. It is attributed, by the copyist, to Pengoloð (or Quendingoldo) of Gondolin, and he describes the Elvish play-names of the fingers as used by and taught to children."

Pengoloð lives on, Bilbo is a new Elfwine "Elf-friend" (among others).

1971: "This general idea lies behind the events of The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically "true"; except that some special catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to dominion of the world. But the legends are mainly of "Mannish" origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth." JRRT, Letter 325

Possibly as late as 1972 Last Writings Note 17: "Here he wrote that the idea [the idea being that Elvish reincarnation might be achieved by rebirth as a child] "... must be abandoned, or at least noted as a false notion, e.g. probably of Mannish origin, since nearly all the matter of The Silmarillion is contained in myths and legends that have passed through Men's hands and minds, and are (in many points) plainly influenced by contact and confusion with the myths, theories, and legends of Men."

So why go there in the 1960s? My answer goes back to a statement from Christopher Tolkien made in Myths Transformed, but just briefly here, I would say that going there saves parts of the older mythology for Quenta Silmarillion, again QS itself existing within a diverse Legendarium.


Total speculation: I'm not sure an Elvish, or purely Elvish Quenta Silmarillion existed. No doubt there were purely Elvish materials in Rivendell, and many songs and stories by the fire and in its gardens and so on. . . and living Elves too of course! And we can see one of Bilbo's works in Errantry/The Song of Earendil -- which differs from a translation of course . . . but in theory, Bilbo could also be responsible for translating "The Awakening of the Quendi" for an Elvish example, even if it's an Elvish fairy tale mixed with counting lore -- something I think Bilbo might like to tackle and make available in the Common Speech.

Seems a Bilbo-ish choice to me, anyway