[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Actually, after Sauron sacked Eregion and could not find what he was looking for [that being "the chief object of Sauron's assuault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures." -249, but not finding all the Rings Sauron tortured Celebrimbor to learn of their whereabouts.] & he could not get Celebrimbor to tell, he "turned upon the forces of Elrond" [p. 250] He was only able turn on the Dwarves after his "host had been attacked in the rear" [250] by them as Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed" [250] if not for their intervention. Interestingly this is basically the same force you claim was able to keep Sauron himself from invading Rivendell, the same Sauron who not only bore the One Ring, but would surely have overthrown Rivendell had he gotten the Ring back in the 3rd Age. Elrond did not even have Vilya at this point. In any case, let's continue.

The difference is Rivendell had decreased in power with other elves leaving and dying in the Last Alliance. At the same time whilst Sauron would have eventually taken Rivendell in the War of the Ring, it would have been one of the last if not the very last place to fall and would be after everything else had been take. Nothing suggest it would be taken in a short time.

After leaving south-eastern Eriador [check a map] he does set out to conquer Eriador, most of which is to the North of where he is which is why anyone running from him would probably flee to the north, as he is coming from the South, and Rivendell being way up to the N-E of the region. But Rivendell is not his goal.

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250]. Why Lindon? Because at Lindon "he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings".

Except you ignore that his first goal was to gain the mastery of Eriador. You don't just leave a large force undefended at your back. Sauron would have been very foolish to do this without attempting to take Rivendell and we know he did lay siege to it.

The siege is placed on Rivendell so that he can at once set out to his immediate purpose "to take Lindon" and to avoid being taken by surprise from his rear again.

"leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."

It is when he "marched west towards the lands of Gil-galad" that they "ravaged as they went"[ 250]. They also ravaged the lands as he moved from the south back up into the north of Eriador. Again, since fleeing north is a logical thing to do for the Elves as Sauron was coming from the south of Eriador to "gain the mastery of Eriador" [remember, most of Eriador was to the north anyways from his southern position].

What you are saying makes not sense. It says he ravaged the lands first as he was heading North to Rivendell. Secondly we know it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon. Do you really think that Sauron was taking 3 years wiping out small groups of Elves and men, whilst ignoring his biggest threat in the area?

This is the same Elrond whose forces he could have destroyed earlier. Not only that Elrond is not even bearing a Ring of Power and Sauron has the One. Also we know that Sauron could have destroyed Rivendell in the 3rd Age as well. So how is it that with the Ring, being there in person himself, with his armies he can't do it now, against a force we are told not so long ago he would have overwhelmed?

The difference is that Elrond was fighting in open battle. Rivendell was a defensible place and Elrond could call such things as the River to his assistance. We know Sauron would have taken Rivendell eventually, but you seem to think it would have happened at the drop of the hat. Even with the One Ring he could never take Minas Tirith. Anarion not only halted his invasion, but managed to drive him back. Taking Rivendell is something that would require a lot more time that you are implying. Sauron obviously got impatient with the siege and tried to take Lindon immediately.

And they got routed by Sauron. If not for the Elves and Dwarves that attacked them from behind Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed".

Once more open battle is not the same as defending a strong hold out, which you can enchant to help you in the fight.

My point is that Sauron

Invades Eriador, to take the Rings
Fights off Elrond and Celeborn until he sacks Eregion "he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough BOTH to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion." [p. 249]
Chases Elrond and his forces which he could have destroyed had not Elves and Dwarves from Khazad-dûm and Lórinand saved him. "He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear" [p. 250]
Leaves Elrond and chases his saviours to the mines of Moria. "turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back"
Heads north, not to lay a siege on Rivendell, but because most of Eriador is to the north which is where he has to go if he plans on gaining the mastery of it. No clear statement is made that he went North to lay a siege on Gondor, other then that he laid siege to it in order to go west and prevent an attack from his rear. Otherwise it is quite clear that when Sauron went to invade Eriador he, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [p. 249]
He gathers his forces together since he really wants the Rings and leaves a strong force behind to prevent an attack from the rear.
They march west continuing their assault on Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.
They are routed when the Númenóreans arrive and his force at Imladris is trapped between Elrond and Gil-galad's forces and destroyed.
Sauron barely makes it out.

I have already explained why your view does not make sense. You have Sauron spending years fighting small groups of Elves, whilst he ignored his biggest threat.

You have Sauron happily weaken his forces and leave a large part of his army behind, instead of trying to take Rivendell first.

I never said physical engagement alone indicates one's power. You're trying to act like I'm comparing apples and oranges. You made a point that Glorfindel took out a Balrog because he is a strong Elf. I said that there are also other great Elves who could fight Maia and win, as in the case of Gil-galad, and Ecthelion. You clearly say, "Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer" and I tell you that others have fought Maia as well and won. But when I say this you claim I'm trying to say physical fighting is the only indicator of power. Not so, I'm saying that Glorfindel is not the only Elf who is a Balrog slayer and that Gil-galad took out the greatest of Melkor's servants. The point is how did Gil-galad take out the Balrog, through the power of his mind, spells? He used the tools of war and engaged in physical combat with it and he was not the only Elf to engage a Maia and win this way. That is my point, not that physical strength is the only indicator of power. That, it seems, you pulled out of thin air.

Where is it implied that Gil-galad was greater than Glorfindel at the fall of Gondolin? Gil-galad fought Sauron with the help of Elendil.

Only two three elves have ever been known to have killed a Maiar and in the case of Gil-galad it seems like Elendil got the final blow. All three died. Once more Gil-galad did not fight alone, but had the help of the equally powerful and mighty King of Arnor and Gondor.

When you face a foe like a Balrog it is always a spiritual battle as well as a physical one. Glorfindel would have had to use both to win. However, the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return.

Where you and I differ in this is that you claim as a result he is the most powerful Elf in M-E at this point. I believe Galadriel is the superior by any standard, and that there are possibly others as well. Btw, just because other Elves did NOT GET to kill a Blarog or some Maia does not mean they couldn't. Please keep that in mind as you give Glorfindel the title, Balrog slayer.

Other elves have tried and failed including Feanor and Fingon amongst others. You believe Galadriel is superior, but you don't really back it up. Glorfindel had the power near Olorin, which is much superior to Galadariel and any other elf in Middle Earth.

You ignore that Glorfindel already one of the most powerful elves, has his powers significantly increased and is now almost an equal to Olorin. Not Gandalf the Grey, but Olorin in Aman.

It appears to me you are trying to bring various excuses up to bolster your arguments. Sauron was also beaten in tandem by Luthien and Huan earlier in the first Age, and it is you I believe, who believes Luthien to be the most powerful of all the Elves. So we have Luthien + Huan [The Lay of Leithian; 2726-89] beat Sauron, and Gil-galad + Elendil beat a bolstered Sauron with the One Ring. Why are you trying to belittle Gild-galad's efforts? Sure Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man, but Huan is no cupcake either

Luthien did a little more than just beat Sauron. She put the whole of Hell to sleep. She had the power to put Morgoth, the Balrogs, the orcs, the Maiar, the dragons etc all to sleep. It's you who are trying to downplay the help that Elendil gave. Elendil was also the last to fall in the duel.

3 powerful Elves got the opportunity to do so. Again, I want to make it clear, that unlike you, I do not believe that because some other powerful Elf did not get the opportunity does not mean they could not. One of the most incredible things to me was how Fëanor was able to fight against MULTIPLE Balrogs and was only stopped when Gothmog knocked him senseless. He fought hard and long in that affair, fearing not his enemies.

Feanor was not alone and there were only ever around 5 Balrogs ever. Other elves had the opportunity, but none of them are ever recorded as having the ability to defeat a Maiar.

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds" [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125] Though he did not win, and died of his wounds after his sons saved him, he and he alone " was made the mightiest... of all the Children of Ilúvatar" [ch. 11, p. 112]

Those are from an early text and things have been rewritten. There is equal evidence that Fingolfin was stronger and had the greater valour, whilst Luthien had unmatched power since she was able to put ALL the Balrogs and Morgoth to sleep.

I said that? I do not recall. If I did I was surely mistaken because I know I do not think that because someone beats another that it necessarily means they are more powerful. Many get their day in the Sun. Éowyn & Merry defeated the Witch-king for instance.

Exactly.

Possible. She is compared in ways to Manwë and with Melian, but I'm of the opinion that even in her youth she was trained to fight, did fight, and was extremely skilled at it. I think, personally, should could have fought with Gil-galad in a purely physical level [although one needs mental toughness in such endeavors] and won even though we are generally given the view that his was not necessarily her thing, which funnily enough also applies to Sauron.

This is your view, but it seems like you are overrating Galadriel. She was a match for the athletes of the Eldar, but she was not noted as being the strongest. Gil-galad is especially praised for his martial skills.

No it doesn't. Galadriel was. You even mentioned that of the Elves who remained in the 3rd Age from the 2nd [which included Glorfindel because he clearly remained] she was the most powerful.

"she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370]

Glorfindel obviously did not remain, because he died and had to return. It's an attempt to twist what Tolkien wrote. All through out LOTR Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf.

I disagree, that is, "added with the all the other bits" concerning Galadriel. He is powerful, do not get me wrong, but I think there are still others who are like that who "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power" FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 1 p. 269]

Yes and Glorfindel is said to be the strongest of them. Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates and it is Glorfindel that is comparable to Olorin in power.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but clearly there may be captains who have mightier officers in their train. Take for instance Glorfindel and Elrond. Was not Elrond in command of forces that included Glorfindel, sent by Gil-galad to aid Celebrimbor? Don't you think the latter is mightier than the former?

No I don't think Elrond had the greater power, but he did have the greater rank. I never said it proved that Glorfindel was the most powerful, but it was an indicator. Tolkien himself pretty much confirms Glorfindel was the most powerful elf in Rivendell.

Yes he did. He came back around 1200 of the 2nd Age probably and remained in the 3rd Age. In fact the portion in which Galadriel is said to be the mightiest says "all the Elves" not just of the Eldar who came from Aman.

Yes, because most of the elves are dead and how can he have 'remained' if he died and returned? It's not logically possible to remain if you die and go back to Aman.