View Single Post
Old 11-02-2017, 04:58 PM   #21
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
VT-EX-01b: Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough?

VT-EX-01b & VT-LQ-01.5:
- Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough?
- Are not “…;for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of {the} Night. “ and “But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.” redundant?
- I think, that it is no question that the “Walls of the World” separate Creation from Uncreation as you put it in all cosmologies. But Eä signifies all the Creation. So it can not be said that beyond Ekkaia is Eä, because Eä includes Ekkaia and the rest of Arda (if Ekkaia can still be called a part of Arda). Howsoever we do not have to explain the cosmology, we “just” have too make the sentence in question fit to what we know for sure about the cosmology we work with. But anyhow that sentence most not be an exact listing of all things between one point and the other and that the Walls of the World were beyond Ekkaia is no question.
So I think we should change all this probably in this way:
Quote:
VT-EX-01c <AAm Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the {Gods}[Valar] upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and they had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the <AAm* ancient> world; for its{ west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the} east-shores{ of Aman} are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West. VT-EX-02 <LT Then said Manwë: ‘Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.’ So they fared over {Arvalin}[Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues{ even to the Outer Seas}.> VT-LQ-01.5 <LQ But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.>
VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, …
VT-EX-03b: posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I also move the detail of the world rumbling in the gloom to what I feel is a more natural place.
I am sorry, but that place doesn’t feel right to me. May be we should move it even more. What about:
Quote:
VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from {Arvalin}[Avathar] and reared therewith> <AAm upon the shores of the Sea {they raised} the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. {And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height which was called Taniquetil,}> VT-EX-03.01<LT and the world rumbled in the gloom and {Melko}[Melkor] heard the noises of their labour.> VT-EX-03.02<LT Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured {for seven ages} at Manwë’s bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil} the greatest mountain,> VT-EX-03.03<AAm upon whose summit Manwë set his throne before the doors of the domed halls of Varda{.},> VT-LQ-02.5 <LQ Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and Elerrína Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.>
VT-EX-03.1: We can as well use here “Mountains of Aman” as in the paragraph before and “towered mightily between their land and the world the Valar drew breath”

VT-LT-06: If we replace “Murmuran” by “Lórien” then we should replace at the beginning of the sentence “Lórien” by “Irmo”, otherwise sentence reads awkward. But why do we remove “Murmuran”?
By the way: we used “Lóriën” up to now, at least for the place in Valinor and the Valar.
The reinsertion of Silindirin I would do in this way:
Quote:
… them much in his enchantments. VT-LT-06.5 {Amidmost}[Within] of those pleasances was set {within}[amidmaost] a ring of shadowy cypress towering high that deep vat {Silindrin}[Silindirin]. There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered never to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.>
VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, …
I exchanged “amidmost” and “within” because Silindirin can no longer be “amidmost” of Lóriën.

VT-LT-11: I agree that we should not call Oromë any longer Yavanna’s son, but I think we can edit this in a lighter way:
Quote:
VT-LT-11b{And}[Now] Oromë tamer of beasts <LT {Now Oromë} had a vast domain and it was beloved by him, and no less by {Palúrien}[Yavanna]{ his mother}. Behold, the groves of trees they planted upon the plain of Valinor and even upon the foothills of the mountains have no compare on Earth. …
VT-LT-11.5: Here we should add Culullin back in:
Quote:
… Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that cauldron, gold {Kulullin}[Culullin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13 was none ever of that splendour spilled from the vat of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Árië] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>
Quote:
[The Tree of Amalion; Artist; no. 62; p. 64]
The Tree of Amalion
VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes …
VT-LT-13b: I am inclined to move the following section from Valaquenta about Nienna to the end of the actual chapter:
Quote:
Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.
I think that the passage about Nienna in the Valaquenta can stand without this it would read then:
Quote:
… and often the Valar come themselves to Lóriën and there find repose and easing of the burden of Arda.
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Vala-04.3{Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.}
Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, …
In Of Valinor and the two Trees I would add it thus:
Quote:
VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that {Vefantur}[Námo] and {Fui}[Vairë] his wife and his sister Nienna of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the northward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh {Arvalin}[Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Námo]{, and he called that hall with his own name Vê}. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of Silpion: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.{
}There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again {be born into their children}[take body], and go forth to laugh and sing again.>
VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}Namo’s black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>
Quote:
[Wickedness; Artist; no. 32; p. 37]
Wickedness
VT-EX-39 <Ainu {Her}Nienna’s halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.>
I think that now I have catched all points I see in this chapter.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote