[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

When I remeber rightly, it was JRR Tolkien him self how noted that it would ruine the gesture, when Húrin must go to Doriath and ask for help in the tarnspprot of the treasure. So I think that we must retain the outlaws at least into Doriath.

Was it JRRT? I was under the impression it was Christopher.

But if the outlaws are to go in peace from Menegroth, than I think they would best leave it in company with Húrin. Since of Húrins further aktions is nothing said, other than his death in the western see, you could left thier fate dubious as well.

But it seems likely that had they gone with him, they would have prevented him from slaying himself. In all versions of the story, Hurin goes forth alone, and slays himself alone. To me this seems to be a critical point.

On the other hand we could also use Mîms crouse and the quarells on the road as solution for thier fate and only move it to the time after they left Menegroth. But that is agian a very riscy course to go.

It is a nice solution; but you are right - it's risky.

Now that I have worked a little with the version in the private forum, I think it best that we leave the slaying of the outlaws in Menegroth. I think that it leaves the curse of the gold of Glaurung a factor in that part of the story, and the advantage of it is that it is already included in the Tale of the Nauflagring so no fabrication necessary. I personally do not see any overriding reason as to make the outlaws leave Doriath willingly do you?

The trouble is that the fight in Thingol's halls is one of those features of the Lost Tales that never appears again. I certainly see your point - if there's no pressing reason to reject it, it would be preferrable to use it and not invent anything. But it seems to be one of the 'primitive' aspects of the Lost Tales - Elves becoming greedy and savage at the slightest provocation, Thingol's hall being overrun with brawling and slaughter time after time. Moreover, it seems quite plausible that the main objective of the story in Q30 was to eliminate this fight in Menegroth.

I realize, of course, that having the outlaws leave willingly is no closer to being valid than is the fight.

Perhaps the best way to go would be (if we could manage it) to be ambiguous about the fate of the outlaws - "of the fate of Hurin's band no tale tells" or something of the sort.

That is the reason as to why in my revision, I deleted the references to the green Elves that helped Beren in the QS77.

An argument could certainly be made that the aid of the Green-elves was not rejected. Beren had no 'army' but that is not to say that he had no aid whatsoever outside the Ents. But I suppose that in eliminating mention of the Green-elves we are not explicitly saying that they were not there.

Findegil wrote:

Maedhros, I am sure that you had done a lot of hard and nice work for that version in the private forum. But I think that it wouldn't be good to start the work on the basis of a text hidden from public.

I think this is certianly correct. The actual editing should be done, as with the Fall of Gondolin, in the public forum.