[Aiwendil]

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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

&lt;&lt;There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with &quot;Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'&quot;, though the matter of names has not been brought up yet.&gt;&gt;

I think you've misread this; it would actually start: &quot;Tuor asked the name of the city, and Elemmakil made answer:&quot;

However, perhaps you are right that we should start a bit earlier. My only reasoning for this starting point was that the first words of TO are: 'Tuor asked the name of the city'. I think your starting point is good, however.

&lt;&lt;Elemma[c]il &gt;&gt;

The c vs. k matter probably requires its own thread. Perhaps that's a topic where we could have more of a group discussion.

&lt;&lt;And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.&gt;&gt;

I don't think there's a question that Ecthelion outranks Elemmakil. I do think there may be a difference between 'chief of the guard' and 'warden of the gate'. This is really a fairly trivial decision though, as the dialogue could easily have been spoken by either of them.

&lt;&lt;Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister.&gt;&gt;

Agreed.

&lt;&lt;If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven.&gt;&gt;

Or it could be that just as 'Gondolin' = 'Stone-song' was later taken as 'Gond Dolen' = 'Hidden Rock', 'Garthoren' = 'Fenced Fort' may have later been taken as 'Gar Thorin' = 'Hidden place'. The only problem is the word _gar_ which may not have meant 'place' later. (In the actual text I gave I used _nome_ = place, but I definitely don't think this is the way to go.)

&lt;&lt;Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in &quot;The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin&quot; in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. &gt;&gt;

This had completely escaped my attention. Still, as you point out, Loth-a-ladwen is little better. I think we may still want to change it to a form we know is proper Sindarin, like *Lothinan.

&lt;&lt;but those who love me most greatly &lt; Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,&gt; call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} &lt; Lay Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily&gt; that blooms on the plain.&gt;&gt;

I like this, but I had thought that perhaps the saying 'Tirion is born again' might be better used at the actual building of Gondolin.

&lt;&lt;I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.)&gt;&gt;

True. But I'd still probably tap this name as the first to go if we replace any with 'Ardholen' or 'Gondost'.

&lt;&lt;I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur.&gt;&gt;

Agreed. Sometimes it's hard to tell which parts of an outline need expansion and which don't.

&lt;&lt;I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone.&gt;&gt;

Nonetheless, I think we may have to let this go. While it is an excellent point of description, it seems to me a bit awkward. I wonder if we could (legitimately) work it in somewhere else?

&lt;&lt;Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go.&gt;&gt;

Perhaps it could be inserted for Gwindor in the Tale of Turin?

&lt;&lt;But what now of his Elvish armour? &gt;&gt;

I had quite forgotten that (as important a point as it is). I think your corrections are good.

&lt;&lt;though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth]&gt;&gt;

I wonder if this should be kept, even if we keep the remarks on their stature. In the Lost Tales, nearly all the Noldoli became slaves of Melko; those in Gondolin were the only free Gnomes; thus, this statement has force and relevance. Here, however, I think it comes off as a little out of place. It is true that some Noldor were made thralls, but it is hardly a general characteristic of all the Noldor that they are bent of back from long labour.

&lt;&lt;You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used. &gt;&gt;

I had forgotten the late change to Amon Gwared. But I agree it needs checking.

What then of the names Ardholen and Gondost? Do you think these should replace 2 of the 7 names? If so, which ones?




</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil </A> at: 7/29/01 8:02:47 am