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Old 01-11-2005, 03:33 AM   #6
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
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The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
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Did I say that they couldn't reproduce?
Oops! My apologies. I misread "ability" for "inability". My only excuse is that it was the early hours for me (being on GMT).

*Saucepan skulks off to write "I must read posts properly before responding" 100 times*

I do seem to recall discussion around here at some time to the effect that fallen Ainur could not reproduce, though. Didn't Tolkien speculate that Morgoth was rendered sterile in consequence of his fallen state? I will provide a link if I can find it.


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I, personally, wouldn't have picked Gorbag out as a Boldog, but maybe they are more common than I am supposing. Or perhaps, being a captain, he has Boldog-blood, and thus greater longevity?
If one holds with the idea (put forward by Tolkien in his later years, I believe) that "normal" Orcs are mere creatures without fea directed by a greater will, then the Boldog analysis would explain the rebellious tendencies exhibited by Shagrat and Gorbag in their conversation. Personally, though, I don't hold with that idea, as Orcs in general, as depicted in The Hobbit and LotR, exhibit too great a degree of sentience and independence, to my mind, to be mere automata.

Edit: Here is the quote that I was thinking of (from Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed):


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Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget', or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring).
Whether this applies to Melkor alone, or also to lesser fallen Ainu, is not clear. Although the suggestion is that an evil being would be barren by virtue of its evil nature, there are clear indications elsewhere that Orcs reproduced in the manner of other races.
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Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 01-11-2005 at 03:58 AM.
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