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Old 05-07-2004, 03:45 PM   #50
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,123
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Findegil wrote:
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Findegil VE-02: I don't see a problem with the additions from AB2. They are taken in to add some detail but that we would need such additions in this chapter was clear from the start. Other wise the break between FoG and FoD would be unbearable.
Well, I've said it many times before (and I'll say it again, I'm sure) - I think that in any case, the break between FoG and VoE will be "unbearable" (so will the break in RoD where "Wanderings" ends - actually this latter will probably be even worse).

I'm torn on the issue of the additions from AB2. Yes, they were written by Tolkien. But to what extent can we just take a sentence from here, a sentence from there, and splice them all together?

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VE-05: Could it be an alternativ to switch the §§? In the Moment we have: The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; the tale of Eärendils youth; Tour's depature.
If we take the additions from BoLT one § earlier that would give:
The Fugitives settle at Sirions mouth; the tale of Eärendils youth; Ulmo's talk to the Valar; Tour's depature.
It is clear that between Eärendils youth and Tour's depature some time elapsed, thus the intrusion of Ulmo's visit to Valinor would fill that time gap in the narritive.
This might be the best solution.

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VE-08: I am not very happy to lose the encounter with Ungoliant completly. It is clear that we can not say that he had slain her, but success full fight with the waever of darkness in the south was never gainsiad, as fare as I know (or do I overlook some fact here?).
It was never specifically denied, but in LQ we have: "It is said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last." It's not given as a certainty ("it is said . . ."), but even the possibility is certainly enough to proclude her from VoE.

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VE-14: If we in the end come to the conclusion that Melkor was never chained with Angainor before than I would think that we should alter the sentence to:
Your change looks good to me.

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VE-20 Do these additions from MT "badly interupt the prose"? I can not feel that, but I am no native speaker, and thus no good judge in this matter. The additions are clearly not really neccessary, thus we could go with out them.
It's my strong opinion that they do. Perhaps others would disagree.

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I have a strong feeling that we should not deal with Galadriel situation if we can aviod it. If we do make it in the end through all the First Age stuff and come to the Second Age we must of course incooperate Of Galadiel and Celeborn but we should not make any decission before that time, and even if RGEO is cannon, we should aviod pointing at it here. What is justified from RGEO is to alter the sentence as followes:
I agree in principle. But I think your solution has an unintended consequence. You suggested:

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And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor{, as all were free to do who willed}; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
But I do not think that the "as all were free to do who willed" is intended to apply to Noldor returning to Aman; I interpret as emphasizing that they were not restricted to Tol Eressea; they were free to settle in Valinor itself again if they wished.

Perhaps instead we could use:
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And when they came into the West the {Gnomes} [Elves of Beleriand] for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some returned even to Valinor, as all [that went west] were free to do who willed; and there the {Gnomes} [Noldor] were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
Or something along those lines.

Maedhros wrote:
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Ok. I didn't see that. But Aiwendil, was this Entry meant to be part of a narrative or an explanation like the one in Myths Transformed.
A good question. I can see an argument either way. On the one hand, it's in a text that was certainly not meant to be a narrative. On the other hand, it seems very likely that, had he written a full tale of Earendil, he would have told what happened to Egalmoth and Galdor there; and of course, the only way we have of introducing that element is from the name list.

I think it's altogether different from the MT text. That text was an analysis of the work; the name-list is not. And, critically, the MT passage in question does not contain any information not already in the text; it only analyzes the Valar's actions. The name-list, on the other hand, is the only source for those plot points.

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I agree that QS77 paragraph order is superior to that of the Quenta Silmarillion, but can we use our principles in order to change it?
I tend to think not. But it's worth some consideration.

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Can you explain to me in detail as to why the addition from MT badly interrupts the prose?
It's simply in a totally different style - a very colloquial style. I suppose if I must analyze it - "Mere criminal" and "executed" are rather out of place compared with the surrounding diction. And the sort of afterthought construction of "as judge – and executioner" is very colloquial. The point is that this is thoroughly Tolkien, the author, evaluating the motives of his characters.

Tar Elenion wrote:
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Dipped over the worlds rim.
Round Earth...
Yes - but this comes from a Lost Tales outline, which means it comes from a flat earth cosmology already. I suppose it could be a slip on Tolkien's part - but then in changing it we are in the position of "correcting" him. We might avoid the problem altogether by using:

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/TE-NC Idril and {Earendel} [Earendil] {see} [saw] Tuor's boat dropping into the twilight and a sound of song.\/TE-E {His} [Great was Earendil's] passion of tears upon the shore.*\ {, and} [And Tuor] came no more into any tale or song
Where TE-NC refers to the scraps of outline from "notebook C" that follow the A-E outlines in II. It still "drops" (cf. "dip") but "into the twilight" which sounds safer than "over the world's rim".

Good to see you, T-E.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-24-2004 at 11:25 AM.
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