[gondowe]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
It sounds like you prefer to remove the counsel that they make alliances and go to war. But the text you posted retains it. Which is your actual preference?
Whether the counsel of war really contradicts the Prophecy of the North, and Ulmo's words to Turgon in Vinyamar, is worth some thought. But how then does one explain the Tale of Years entry, which, it seems to me, quite clearly implies that Ulmo's counsel involves making alliances with other Elves and Men?
I have reviewed the Prophecy of the North again and can find nothing that clearly rules out the possibility of Men and Elves together defeating Morgoth. Nor, I think, do Ulmo's words rule it out - he is saying that the surest way to defeat Morgoth is with the aid of the Valar, but he is not saying that it is the only way.
I think the text proposed by Gondowe is our best option.

It was not a proposal, only quoted the whole text of Findegil, sorry.

Originally posted by Aiwendil
But my opinion on this is unchanged. I find it incredible that after the Prophecy of the North declares 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', Turgon would blithely go ahead and name their city Gondolin. Remember, in the Lost Tales, Turgon is not yet born when the prophecy is made, and it can more plausibly be supposed that he was unaware of it. Indeed, I would not be surprised if it was for this reason that later accounts of the prophecy omit any mention of Gondolin.

Well, in this whole case (joining the two quotes), it can be considered several things. First of all the Prophecy of the North; that one only tells of the Doom of the Noldor, very bad. So we must combine the Prophecy and the words of Ulmo.
But we must consider one thing before; in the Prophecy I introduced the sentence “'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed<LT and great {is} [will be] the fall of Gondolin>; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also.”
If I´m right, you or only Findegil did more or less the same.
If we accept to include it, it can be remembered in the FoG. So it can be a matter of discussion to do or not. I like to include it because it sounds me more dramatical, is like an arc between the Doom and its fulfillment.
If Turgon was not born in LT, in my opinion doesn`t matter because some Noldor of Gondolin could have been and in fact were in Valinor and could have tell Turgon not to name the city Gondolin.
In other way, in my opinion, the will of Ulmo always was (in the last conception of the professor, and due to that fulfillment) to carry Tour to Gondolin to bring into the world Eärendil, the only being, Half Elf, Half Man, designated with the help of the Silmaril (we can think that Ulmo knew very much due to his part in the Music) to come to Valinor and beg for pardon and help to the Valar. So Turgon only would fly to the mouths of Sirion or Tol Sirion and wait the coming of the Host of West and then go to war against Angband, not before. ”But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it”.
For that reason, in my opinion, the sentence in ToY could be ambiguous, it could be that Turgon want no alliance with the sons of Fëanor in any case. Or could be an omission of the professor.
What do you think?

Originally posted by Aiwendil
I can't recall whether we have any examples of the Valar referring to him as 'Morgoth'. But unless we can find some, using 'Melkor' is probably safer.

I think Ulmo could name him Morgoth (Black Enemy, he named him Enemy previously). It can be a solidarity with Elves and Men.

Greetings