[HerenIstarion]

Part 1 (here we partly go along with davem)

Originally Posted by davem

notice that I seem to be at least in part responsible for an unaccustomed verbosity in our beloved Burrahobbit

I liked it more when he was laconic (see my first post on the thread). But since I did take part in poking him into action, let me poke some more and see what happens:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants."

Fills the bill perfectly as far as I'm concerned (see below, part 3). But we attribute slightly different meanings to the phrase, or so it seems now.

For me, that would mean that each individual is free in what they do, but whatever they actually choose to do, is incorporated into the whole texture of all events and taken into it to be in accordance with Eru's Will (see part 2 below) and to the Good ultimately. The each derivation of choice does alter the consequent chain of events, but if you look at each chain as a thread, and the world a carpet, derivation of pattern does not alter the existence of the carpet as such, or its ultimate purpose – to adore the wall over Eru’s hearth. (The last phrase being an exaggeration to an extent – equally real purpose of the ‘carpet’ is for each particle of it to be free, love Eru and be loved in return, as ‘of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy’ (AFaA))

It may seem that thus the freedom of individual will is rendered meaningless, but it is not so, as individual choice does matter for the chooser him/herself and the beauty of the carpet as a whole.

Per instance:

The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were

And there would not have been the whole lot of ‘stabbing in the face’, but there would have been something else. The Music thus needs not define the smallest events minutely, but define general pattern the threads are woven along of.

Or to quote myself for just another analogy:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I'd say I think the Music is pattern World is fitted into. Why it can not be merely its result, is absence of time as we know it in the Halls of Eru. In a sense, therefore, Music is never ceased. So to say, the world is like train moving on rails, with elves having tickets on to the terminal station while Men keep jumping out of windows now and again. (Or, in more civilized mental picture, having tickets on to intermediary stations). Music is rails.

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Yes we do: immediately when he entered The World.

As I do not find the Music as minutely defining as that, I was arguing from the standpoint of ’pure’ evil issue – i.e., as Free Will is not defined or limited as such by the Music, but rather provides it with the rails to run along of, the loss of Free Will comes only when the self is beyond redemption – i.e. when it is no more able of anything other but worshipping its own self and loses the self it started worshipping at the moment of doing so, and is no more able to come back over.

Part 2 (where we part ways with davem)

Originally Posted by davem

The Music determines the fate of Arda & the Elves, being bound to Arda are bound up with its fate. Men are not bound to Arda & it is this very fact that gives them the unique freedom to act that they have

Once again, as with burra’s command/will quote above, I would be glad to sign my name under the statement, but we seem to read it in slightly differing ways. As with my train analogy, the freedom of men is in their ability to leave the train at some point along its route, not in ability to swim parallel to its course in a boat or fly over it in a helicopter, which ‘building their own roads’ seems implying.

Not to repeat myself way too often, please see the ruler analogy:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Given the same ruler of Good and Evil, all Children should measure with it their actions in similar way, and the freedom is in the process of measurement, not in different ruler. But one can not measure the same length with same ruler and come out with differing numbers?

Which in itself is rooted in much quoted by me:

Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them

I’ll elaborate: Eru’s Will may be defined in two ways:

1. In relation to the whole world, His Will is to have complete Arda Remade, by which the Fate is defined and is expressed through the Music. Whatever anyone does, there will be the Arda Remade (further EW1)
2. In relation to individuals, his Will is for them to accord to the qualities He has (Intelligence, Benevolence etc), i.e ‘be like Him’ (paragon - Men are instructed by Eru Himself till they turn their ear to Morgoth and are Fallen) (further EW2)

No individual is able to disaccord with Eru’s Will 1, but each individual is free to disaccord with Eru’s Will 2. Dissacord with EW2 does not affect EW1, i.e. Fate (with capital F) = outcome of the Music = Arda Remade, but does affect the individual fate (ultimate disaccord with EW2 brings the creature into the Void, or, in case of Saruman (yes, I remember it’s the thread with Saruman there in the title), to be a ghost ‘dissolved by the wind’)

But there is something else there too – whilst EW1 is broad and bendable, EW2 is strict – one either conforms to it or does not. I.e. any action may be ‘right’ in one way only – if it accords to EW2. Such a strict restriction does no leave room for ‘unique freedom’ (which seems implying some third alternative) – whatever Man or Elf does, is either right or wrong in relation to EW2, and the freedom comes down to choice inside the dichotomy.

So, in such a roundabout way I come back to titilar topic, or

Part 3: Treason of Isengard: Eru’s will?

Having all the above in mind, it may be argued Saruman was acting in accordance with EW1, and thus indeed, it was Eru’s Will for Isengard to betray the Council and Free Peoples, for whatever is done, the flowing of time brings Arda Remade nearer, and thus Eru’s Will nearer completion, but on individual, EW2 level, Saruman was acting against Eru’s Will

Does it sound like ‘do not ask elves, for they will say both yes and no’? I suppose so, but I have just another analogy, from ‘Was Eru A Sadist’ thread this time for you to ponder over:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

If I were a parent, my will would be that my children behaved properly and tidied up their room, but my will would also be that they were free. If I were to find the room in a mess, I would certainly have my will contradicted in one way, but carried along in another, since my children were free to mess it up. Furthermore it is question of my priorities, what is it I like best - tidy room or free children. (I would certainly prefer both at once, but if they refuse to clean up?...)

The EW1, or Arda Remade, in this analogy is the point when the parent enters the room with a vacuum cleaner. Those who will, though, still have the time to accord with EW2 and arm themselves with dustbins.

Not to tire you and my own self any longer, let me repeat burra’s quote already given above, for it perfectly fits here, for the Part 3:

Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants."