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Old 11-26-2016, 09:41 AM   #20
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,031
Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I begin to think that The Adventures of Tom Bombdil becomes notably important here, as Tolkien chooses to characterize the lore of Rivendell as Elvish and Numenorean, and characterizes a First Age tale as Numenorean.

We can't discount that Bilbo used living sources in Rivendell, as well as written, as this information is then also published a few years later in the Note On The Shire Records. There were other Exiled Noldor in Rivendell besides Glorfindel, but we can use him for examples -- the question is: what kind of help did the living sources provide?

I would say why not imagine that Glorfindel is a living source for an Elvish-perspective tale, or an Elvish linguistic document, or details about Gondolin, for example. Again, would it even be Glorfindel's part to correct a Mannish compliation called The Silmarillion, or any of the ancient Numenorean works that have already been sitting in the vaults of Rivendell long before Bilbo Baggins came along? Maybe Glorfindel told Bilbo the "true" tale of Ambarussa for example, in which it is said that: "In the night Feanor, filled with malice, aroused Curufin, and with him and a few of those most close to Feanor in obedience he went to the ships and set them all aflame; and the dark sky was red as with a terrible dawn."

Maybe Bilbo asks Glorfindel: is it true that the First Elves awoke before the Sun existed? And for answer Glorfindel says "no"[*] and digs out a document called the Cuivienyarna, which is noted as being "preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar." Again, represent the Elvish point of view, don't correct the Mannish Silmarillion -- and in any case, if Glorfindel has read this Mannish compilation, he knows that:

Quote:
"A note should say that the Wise of Numenor recorded that the making of stars was not so, nor of Sun and Moon. For Sun and stars were all older than Arda. But the placing of Arda amidst stars and under the [?guard] of the Sun was due to Manwe and Varda before the assault of Melkor"

JRRT Myths Transformed, note to text I
Christopher Tolkien took this to mean: "that the making of the Sun, Moon and stars were not derived from Elven lore."

*perhaps Glorfindel would say something like CJRT here,... rather than "No"

As late as 1971 [Letter 325] as I read the following, Tolkien even had the Sindar as possibly contributing some material that might not be quite as informed as that of the Exiles: "But the Legends are manly of "Mannish" origin blended with those of the Sindar (Grey-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth." (actually the letter reads "Gray-elves" in my copy)

Not leaving Middle-earth arguably equates to another level of separation from the teachings of the Valar, in my opinion (despite contact with the Exiles), but again, if even some of the Wise of Numenor have already noted the "truth" about the Sun and Stars, I see little need to alter the Silmarillion proper (that tale itself) to reflect the Elvish perspective in all matters.


Edit: Ah, didn't see Zigur's last post before I blathered on.

Nice and concise! What Zigur said, then

Last edited by Galin; 11-30-2016 at 10:11 PM.
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