The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - *A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin*

Tar Elenion · 06-19-2001, 08:04 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

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<<Or even why must any Balrogs be slain in the War of Powers?>>

I'm not going to make this claim with certainty without the book in front of me, but I'm almost sure that one of texts in MR - either LQ or more likely AAm refers to the death of a number of balrogs before the onslaught of the Valar.
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Yes, in Annal 1099 (HoME 10): at the end of the battle Morgoth 'sent forth a host of Balrogs and they assailed the standard of Manwe ... they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword' until Morgoth alone was left (which implies all were slain suggesting re-embodiment of some, though perhaps some were left elsewhere (Angband), I would have to research it more). This is referred back to when the note on '3 or 7 Balrogs' is discussed. It leaves one to wonder what JRRT might have changed this to. Perhaps changing it to 'demons' might not be inappropriate.

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<<or do you suggest going following CT's lead and giving no numbers?>>

That's precisely what I suggest. I agree that we obviously cannot merely make up a different number; but I think that there's sufficient doubt about the figure of 7 that we need not mention it. I also think we can still have Rog slay a balrog (or else we'll have to cut out a very significant portion of the battle scene, and we'll be left with nothing about Rog at all). That would still allow 3 to have been killed in the War of Wrath, if we assume that the total of 7 must be kept.
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I understand your point on Rog, though I disagree.

The later attestations seem to be only Ecthelion and Glorfindel. But that would leave finding something for Rog and his folk to kill. I don't recall that Rog is singled out for actually killing a Balrog but rather he and his men drove in to the Balrog host and slew many. Perhaps mentioning the 'Boldogs' again might be appropriate.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

06-19-2001, 08:04 PM	#41
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin ------------------------ Quote: <<Or even why must any Balrogs be slain in the War of Powers?>> I'm not going to make this claim with certainty without the book in front of me, but I'm almost sure that one of texts in MR - either LQ or more likely AAm refers to the death of a number of balrogs before the onslaught of the Valar. ------------------------------ Yes, in Annal 1099 (HoME 10): at the end of the battle Morgoth 'sent forth a host of Balrogs and they assailed the standard of Manwe ... they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword' until Morgoth alone was left (which implies all were slain suggesting re-embodiment of some, though perhaps some were left elsewhere (Angband), I would have to research it more). This is referred back to when the note on '3 or 7 Balrogs' is discussed. It leaves one to wonder what JRRT might have changed this to. Perhaps changing it to 'demons' might not be inappropriate. ---------------------------- Quote: <<or do you suggest going following CT's lead and giving no numbers?>> That's precisely what I suggest. I agree that we obviously cannot merely make up a different number; but I think that there's sufficient doubt about the figure of 7 that we need not mention it. I also think we can still have Rog slay a balrog (or else we'll have to cut out a very significant portion of the battle scene, and we'll be left with nothing about Rog at all). That would still allow 3 to have been killed in the War of Wrath, if we assume that the total of 7 must be kept. ---------------------------------- I understand your point on Rog, though I disagree. The later attestations seem to be only Ecthelion and Glorfindel. But that would leave finding something for Rog and his folk to kill. I don't recall that Rog is singled out for actually killing a Balrog but rather he and his men drove in to the Balrog host and slew many. Perhaps mentioning the 'Boldogs' again might be appropriate. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion