[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Again, I see this as the logical fallacy of the false dillemma. The story can be both, I see no reason why not. I find your argument esspecially questionable, given that you were the first to quote Tolkien as calling this a noachian situation.

You are assuming Tolkien said that the downfall of Numenor was a Noachian situation. He did not. He said the escape of Elendil was a Noachian situation, which it was to a small extent (in that Noah is said to have led the only human survivors of a cataclysm whereas Elendil leads the survivors of one cataclysm and other humans continue regardless of it). But one chapter of a novel does not define the whole. Especially when we are told what it is meant to represent. There simply is no argument.

Originally Posted by Raynor

One would have to balance the justice of this killing against growing up in a ever increasingly corrupted world, where they would be zombies doing Sauron's work, oppressing others in ways unimaginable, losing every bit of humanity, falling ever lower on the chasm of madness. I wonder if a mother would suffer her children to go about that way.

There is no need to 'balance' anything morally.

And you underestimate mothers' love which transcends anything that mere morality can impose upon it.

Now if the children really were zombies, wouldn't their mothers also be 'zombies'? So the argument doesn't hold up. And that's putting aside that Tolkien, a family man, would not have been able to contemplate the idea that children could be 'evil'. I don't know how much you know about children, but ever since humans walked upright children have played all kinds of games and being an Orc does not mean a child is evil. How many children play at being pirates these days? Or indeed, Orcs?! My friends' nephews play at being Orcs - should they be put to death or maybe exorcised? They are anything but evil, they are just kids, play acting at thrilling, slightly scary things!

Even if we look at the downfall from a purely textual viewpoint then Eru was not punishing the people of Numenor for consorting with Sauron, he was taking Numenor from the face of the world because the Valar had told the Numenoreans that if they broke the Ban then they would never see Numenor again - a certain way of achieving this is to wipe it from the face of the world. If Eru was in the business of punishing anyone for consorting with Sauron then what did he do about those Men on Sauron's side who lived in huge numbers in Middle-earth? Nothing. Eru wiped out Numenor because the Valar begged him to, because they could not enact the Ban; Sauron was merely supplementary to what the Numenoreans did, exacerbating, aiding and abetting behaviour which was already in the minds of some of these people.