Thread: Ambarkanta
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:22 PM   #5
gandalf85
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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One general question before getting into specifics. Have we considered including some of Tolkien's maps into the text? This chapter in particular is very hard to follow without the maps published in HoME IV.

This chapter is indeed rather tricky. It seems there are two extreme approaches: try to make everything completely consistent or allow contradictions (which would mostly be due to the limited knowledge of the original authors -- as Arcus mentioned, Tolkien himself expressed this idea in Myths Transformed). I think we should try to take a middle approach: make the text consistent when it is clear what Tolkien's later conception is and the change to the text is minor. We should avoiding doing major violence to the text.

I agree that Gondowe's "now" does not help. If anything, it just adds more questions: what exactly changed? Melkor escaping out of Arda and not out of Ea makes the most sense. But it raises the question of what the Walls of the World/Walls of Night enclose: Arda or all of Ea? I have not gotten to reviewing the main text of the Silmarillion yet: in our text does Melkor return "over the Walls of the Night" in our text as it is in the published Silmarillion? According to the encyclopedia of Arda, Christopher offers the suggestion of there being two walls in HoME 10 (I cannot find the passage it is referring to, I will continue looking): http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/wallsoftheworld.html. If we keep the fact that Melkor returned to Arda "over the Walls of the Night," the idea of two walls is the only thing that makes sense. When the Door of Night is created and Melkor is expelled, he is sent outside of the outer walls which enclose Ea. I don't think it's a good idea to try to change the text to reflect the idea of two sets of walls; instead, we should leave the text as is and chalk it up to the in-universe author having imperfect knowledge.

Other specific points:

I agree with Gondowe and Fin that the fall of the lamps is what causes the creation of the lakes.

Gondowe brought up the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth. The idea of these gates seem like they would cause problems with the idea that the only way out of the Walls of the World is through the Door of Night. I don't know whether we should simply keep the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth or remove it.

There is another question of how the Valar entered into Ea in the first place if the Walls are impenetrable. I think they received the assistance of Eru in this, but upon entering Ea they were bound to it. I do not have any evidence in the text itself, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Fin's concerns about whether the Ambarkanta describes Arda or all of Ea and how this conception could possibly turn into our modern cosmos are legitimate concerns. I think Tolkien's idea of the in-universe author of the Ambarkanta having imperfect knowledge is the best path forward.

One last thing, it looks like Arcus made one change but forgot to post it on the forum. It is similar to what Gondowe proposed about the fall of the lamps creating the seas:

Quote:
Amb-08 But [Melkor assailed] the pillars {were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5 {melting of the ice}[ruin of the lamps] made two small inland seas
I like this change.

Last edited by gandalf85; 02-14-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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