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Old 12-04-2001, 09:33 PM   #24
Marileangorifurnimaluim
Eerie Forest Spectre
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction
Posts: 798
Marileangorifurnimaluim has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Good to see you again, I., good posts wherever I've bumped into you. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Side Note first:
I., I disagree on one minor point, Aragorn's noble motivations would not have made a difference in his more successful use of the Palantir, it was his greater strength of mind. The Palantir were not like the rings of power, they were neutral. Denethor was deceived because he didn't have the strength to recognize Sauron's influence in what he was able to see, and what he could not.

Results vs. Motives

Folks, excuse the length, I'm working this out stream-of-consciousness.

If we judge Denethor by how his actions turned out, we have to condemn him, because it went badly.

Judging character by results will be inaccurate every time.

To do that we have to condemn every mistake, well-intentioned or not... including Pippin dropping that little pebble in Moria.

Then from that we have to condemn the trait that caused this pebble-problem.

Then that ONE trait must be exaggerated to justify our condemnation.

And as soon as we have to exaggerate to prove our point, we've oversimplified. We're looking through the wrong end of the binoculars. No longer taking any other factor into consideration.

Truth is, results mean nothing in judging character. Ill-intentioned actions can come out well, well-intentioned can come out ill. Or an unpredictable outside factor can intervene.

Character can only be judged by motive.

Denethor's intentions were more noble than Pippin's (pebble in Moria) in this case, he honestly meant to glean information for the good of the realm.

So where's his pride?

In using it at all? No. Denethor was had every reason to assume what he saw in the stone was the truth. The nature of the Palantir was not deceptive. He also was faced with grave danger to his kingdom, it’s acceptable to take risks when the gain outweighs the potential risk. It was not pride to try to master the stone, but desperation. He didn't know he was being deceived, and so as far as he knew, his gamble worked.

The real revelation is in how he recited information gleaned from the stone, without mentioning its source.
Quote:
"It has long been known to me who the Captain of the dark forces is.."

"That was known to me ere nightfall.."
Why brag?

For all his good motives, (the following is just a partial list)..
-He wanted an edge over the Dark Lord.
-He was defending his realm and everyone in it.
-He believed in Gondor and all of its traditions, even against the wishes of Boromir. 10,000 years wouldn't suffice to make a steward king.

..he still used the stone as an edge over Gandalf and others of influence. Pride was not his downfall. Politics was.

A politician may do good things, and even mean well, like Denethor, but they will not sacrifice for the good of all. And the only way to win to win this battle was through what Sauron couldn't understand: sacrifice.

Boy I love it when these discussions reveal something I didn't see before. Denethor's a powerful example of a truth Tolkien nailed.

-Maril

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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