The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - * *Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.2 [the transition]* *

Aiwendil · 10-23-2002, 05:38 PM

Here is the '7 Names' discussion that was misplaced (sorry for the length, but I think it's important for this discussion to be accessible):

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

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posted June 21, 2002 11:19 AM
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This is the situation as I see it with each of the names, after taking into account the discussion on the FoG thread.:
Gondolin: Obviously stays; "Stone song".

Gondobar: This works as well; it's translated "city of stone" in FoG, more literal would be "Stone dwelling".

Loth: This also works; "Flower".

Gondothlimbar: We have two options here:
1.Gondothrimbar, which appears to be JRRT's new form for it, but supposes Gondothrim as an alternate name for the Gondolindrim; or 2. Gondolindrimbar, which is formed from the known class plural, but is rather awkward. The translation would be roughly the same for each: "City of the people of Gondolin" or "City of the dwellers in stone".

Gar Thurian: I think that Garthoren was clearly meant as a replacement for this, despite the completely different etymology. I would use it. "Fenced Fort".

Lothengriol: I had missed in my first analysis that this is replaced in HoMe III with Loth-a-ladwen. Jallanite notes that this latter form is also not very good as later Sindarin, but suggests retaining it since it could be an archaic, poetic form. I would be tempted to replace it with Loth-en-laden, or at least Loth-a-laden. "Lily of the plain".

Gwarestrin: This is not quite as difficult as I first thought. We can either keep it, assuming some unknown etymology for esc, or we could use Gwaraectrin from aeg='point'. It is translated "Tower of the Guard" in FoG; more literal is "Guard pinnacle".

In addition to these seven names, we have the problem of two further names appearing later for Gondolin:

Gondost: This is perfectly acceptable as later Sindarin. "Stone City".

Ardholen: This is also probably valid. "Fenced Realm".

The problem is: Gondolin is said to have seven names. We now have nine. Two of them must go; but neither of the two extra names looks like an obvious replacement for any of the original seven. At first glance, it appears that Gondost might supercede Gondobar, but both are found in the Etymologies, indicating that they probably existed side by side.

It is this problem of too many names, rather than any of the actual etymological concerns that is difficult. Should we drop the two extra names? Should we pick two of the original seven to replace with them?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

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obloquy
Shade of Carn Dûm

Member # 90

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posted June 21, 2002 12:02 PM
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Ardholen and Gar Thurian (Garthoren) appear to mean roughly the same thing, so I think the final list of names should include only one or the other.
Gondost and Gondobar mean approximately the same thing as well, so I think the same should go for these two.

In other words, I think all of the unique meanings should be retained. I'll leave the linguistic issues of Lothengriol and Gwarestrin to you who know more about that. I don't think it violates the principles of the project, however, to abandon obsolete (Elvish) words in favor of later, more appropriate words that bear the same meaning.

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Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted June 22, 2002 02:39 PM
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I think that in the end Obloquy's suggestion is the best way to go. The main problem with it is that both Gondost and Gondobar appear in the Etymologies, and so do both Ardholen and Garthoren. This suggests that all four existed side by side. There are other possible explanations for this, though. Perhaps Ardholen and Garthoren were indeed merely variants of the same name (for a discussion of the treatment of these two names in Etym. see the FoG thread).
So, though it's not perfect, right now I think I agree that we should substitute Gondost for Gondobar and drop Ardholen in favor of Garthoren (or perhaps the other way around on the latter).

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

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lindil
Seeker of the Straight Path

Member # 76

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posted June 23, 2002 12:17 PM
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sounds good. And of course there is no reason we can not re-visit the question if need be.

good to see you Obloquy.

I will try and get a similar "transition " thread up in the next few days (minus the 7 names ). I have actually worked on it exstensively 2x onlt to have the HML prob coem and to forget to savwe the changes that the forum would except....

Anyway will give it another go and unless I hear negatively from any members I will try and post the Aussie Rev. Silm material on the private forum.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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lindil
--The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.oh yeah, read Otherland!

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obloquy
Shade of Carn Dûm

Member # 90

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posted June 24, 2002 12:46 AM
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Yeah, I'm hooked up, thanks lindil.
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Maédhros
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Member # 3182

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posted August 05, 2002 10:32 PM
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Ok. I know that this discussion was a long time ago, but here it goes.
Names:
1. Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish.
2. Gondothlimbar = city of dwellers.
3. Gondolin = stone song.
4. Gwarestrin = Tower of Guard.
5. Gar Thurion = Secret Place. Ardholen and Garthurian = Fenced Realm
6. Loth = Flower.
7. Lothengrid = Flower that blooms on the plain.
I agree with obloquy suggestion to keep the unique names.
Why I don't see is why do we keep two names that mean flower Loth and Lothengrid, could we not use only one of those names and use also Ardholen = Fenced Realm.

Just my opinion. Elvish isn't my forte.

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and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 153 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted August 06, 2002 09:40 AM
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The basis for keeping two "flower"-names is that both "Loth" and "Lothengriol" appear among the seven names in FG. "Lothengriol" was later changed to "Loth-a-ladwen", and I think we might want to change that to "Loth-a-laden" to fit later Sindarin. But since both names appear in the Tale, I'd rather keep both of them.

quote:
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Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish.
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Actually, Gondobar and Gondost are both valid Sindarin. Gondobar literally means "Stone-dwelling" while "Gondost" means "Stone-city". Of course, it's perfectly valid to translate "Gondobar" as "Stone-city". I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar".

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Maédhros
Wight

Member # 3182

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posted August 10, 2002 08:32 PM
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From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin

quote:
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"We are the guardians of the issue of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of
Seven Names where all who war with Melko may find hope."
Then said Tuor: "What be those names?" And the chief of the Guard made answer: "'Tis said and 'tis sung: 'Gondobar am I called and Gondothlimbar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and Gwarestrin am I named, the Tower of Guard, Gar Thurion or the Secret Place, for
I am hidden from the eyes of Melko; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Lothengriol the
flower that blooms on the plain.' Yet," said he, "in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin."
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Original Names in FOG.
1. Gondobar = City of Stone.
2. Gondothlimbar = City of the Dwellers in Stone.
3. Gondolin = the Stone of Song.
4. Gwarestrin = the Tower of Guard.
5. Gar Thurion = the Secret Place.
6. Loth = Flower.
7. Lothengriol = the flower that blooms on the plain.
We have then the Etymologies:

quote:
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GOND- stone. Q ondo stone (as material); N gonn a great stone, or rock. [This original entry was retained, but the base was changed to GONOD-, GONDO-, and the following added:] Cf. Gondolin (see DUL); Gondobar (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar in the Lost Tales (II. 342.)]
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quote:
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I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar".
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You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin.
You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies.
--------------------

and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.

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Posts: 153 | From: Formenos | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Aiwendil
Wight

Member # 320

Member Rated:

posted August 11, 2002 10:55 AM
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quote:
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You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin.
You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies.
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Agreed. So I think the list of names that it currently looks like we'll use is:

Gondolin = "Stone song"

Gondost (or maybe Gondobar) = "Stone city"

Gondothrimbar (or maybe Gondolindrimbar) = "City of the dwellers in stone"

Garthoren = "Fenced fort"

Gwarestrin (or maybe Gwaraectrin) = "Tower of the guard"

Loth = "Flower"

Loth-a-ladwen (or maybe Loth-a-laden or Loth-en-laden) = "Lily of the plain"

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Posts: 210 | From: | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

10-23-2002, 05:38 PM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Here is the '7 Names' discussion that was misplaced (sorry for the length, but I think it's important for this discussion to be accessible): Aiwendil Wight Member # 320 Member Rated: posted June 21, 2002 11:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the situation as I see it with each of the names, after taking into account the discussion on the FoG thread.: Gondolin: Obviously stays; "Stone song". Gondobar: This works as well; it's translated "city of stone" in FoG, more literal would be "Stone dwelling". Loth: This also works; "Flower". Gondothlimbar: We have two options here: 1.Gondothrimbar, which appears to be JRRT's new form for it, but supposes Gondothrim as an alternate name for the Gondolindrim; or 2. Gondolindrimbar, which is formed from the known class plural, but is rather awkward. The translation would be roughly the same for each: "City of the people of Gondolin" or "City of the dwellers in stone". Gar Thurian: I think that Garthoren was clearly meant as a replacement for this, despite the completely different etymology. I would use it. "Fenced Fort". Lothengriol: I had missed in my first analysis that this is replaced in HoMe III with Loth-a-ladwen. Jallanite notes that this latter form is also not very good as later Sindarin, but suggests retaining it since it could be an archaic, poetic form. I would be tempted to replace it with Loth-en-laden, or at least Loth-a-laden. "Lily of the plain". Gwarestrin: This is not quite as difficult as I first thought. We can either keep it, assuming some unknown etymology for esc, or we could use Gwaraectrin from aeg='point'. It is translated "Tower of the Guard" in FoG; more literal is "Guard pinnacle". In addition to these seven names, we have the problem of two further names appearing later for Gondolin: Gondost: This is perfectly acceptable as later Sindarin. "Stone City". Ardholen: This is also probably valid. "Fenced Realm". The problem is: Gondolin is said to have seven names. We now have nine. Two of them must go; but neither of the two extra names looks like an obvious replacement for any of the original seven. At first glance, it appears that Gondost might supercede Gondobar, but both are found in the Etymologies, indicating that they probably existed side by side. It is this problem of too many names, rather than any of the actual etymological concerns that is difficult. Should we drop the two extra names? Should we pick two of the original seven to replace with them? [ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 210 \| From: \| Registered: Mar 2001 \| IP: Logged obloquy Shade of Carn Dûm Member # 90 Member Rated: posted June 21, 2002 12:02 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ardholen and Gar Thurian (Garthoren) appear to mean roughly the same thing, so I think the final list of names should include only one or the other. Gondost and Gondobar mean approximately the same thing as well, so I think the same should go for these two. In other words, I think all of the unique meanings should be retained. I'll leave the linguistic issues of Lothengriol and Gwarestrin to you who know more about that. I don't think it violates the principles of the project, however, to abandon obsolete (Elvish) words in favor of later, more appropriate words that bear the same meaning. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 446 \| From: Spokane, WA USA \| Registered: Apr 2001 \| IP: Logged Aiwendil Wight Member # 320 Member Rated: posted June 22, 2002 02:39 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think that in the end Obloquy's suggestion is the best way to go. The main problem with it is that both Gondost and Gondobar appear in the Etymologies, and so do both Ardholen and Garthoren. This suggests that all four existed side by side. There are other possible explanations for this, though. Perhaps Ardholen and Garthoren were indeed merely variants of the same name (for a discussion of the treatment of these two names in Etym. see the FoG thread). So, though it's not perfect, right now I think I agree that we should substitute Gondost for Gondobar and drop Ardholen in favor of Garthoren (or perhaps the other way around on the latter). [ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 210 \| From: \| Registered: Mar 2001 \| IP: Logged lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Member # 76 Member Rated: posted June 23, 2002 12:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- sounds good. And of course there is no reason we can not re-visit the question if need be. good to see you Obloquy. I will try and get a similar "transition " thread up in the next few days (minus the 7 names ). I have actually worked on it exstensively 2x onlt to have the HML prob coem and to forget to savwe the changes that the forum would except.... Anyway will give it another go and unless I hear negatively from any members I will try and post the Aussie Rev. Silm material on the private forum. [ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] -------------------- lindil --The Osanwe Discussion board ~ exploring the nature and questions of Osanwe, and Traditional Christianity.oh yeah, read Otherland! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 855 \| From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] \| Registered: Jul 2000 \| IP: Logged obloquy Shade of Carn Dûm Member # 90 Member Rated: posted June 24, 2002 12:46 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah, I'm hooked up, thanks lindil. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 446 \| From: Spokane, WA USA \| Registered: Apr 2001 \| IP: Logged Maédhros Wight Member # 3182 Rate Member posted August 05, 2002 10:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok. I know that this discussion was a long time ago, but here it goes. Names: 1. Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish. 2. Gondothlimbar = city of dwellers. 3. Gondolin = stone song. 4. Gwarestrin = Tower of Guard. 5. Gar Thurion = Secret Place. Ardholen and Garthurian = Fenced Realm 6. Loth = Flower. 7. Lothengrid = Flower that blooms on the plain. I agree with obloquy suggestion to keep the unique names. Why I don't see is why do we keep two names that mean flower Loth and Lothengrid, could we not use only one of those names and use also Ardholen = Fenced Realm. Just my opinion. Elvish isn't my forte. -------------------- and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 153 \| From: Formenos \| Registered: May 2002 \| IP: Logged Aiwendil Wight Member # 320 Member Rated: posted August 06, 2002 09:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The basis for keeping two "flower"-names is that both "Loth" and "Lothengriol" appear among the seven names in FG. "Lothengriol" was later changed to "Loth-a-ladwen", and I think we might want to change that to "Loth-a-laden" to fit later Sindarin. But since both names appear in the Tale, I'd rather keep both of them. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gondobar = City of Stone to be replace by Gondost, which I assume is a more recent form of elvish. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, Gondobar and Gondost are both valid Sindarin. Gondobar literally means "Stone-dwelling" while "Gondost" means "Stone-city". Of course, it's perfectly valid to translate "Gondobar" as "Stone-city". I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 210 \| From: \| Registered: Mar 2001 \| IP: Logged Maédhros Wight Member # 3182 Rate Member posted August 10, 2002 08:32 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We are the guardians of the issue of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of Seven Names where all who war with Melko may find hope." Then said Tuor: "What be those names?" And the chief of the Guard made answer: "'Tis said and 'tis sung: 'Gondobar am I called and Gondothlimbar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and Gwarestrin am I named, the Tower of Guard, Gar Thurion or the Secret Place, for I am hidden from the eyes of Melko; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Lothengriol the flower that blooms on the plain.' Yet," said he, "in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Original Names in FOG. 1. Gondobar = City of Stone. 2. Gondothlimbar = City of the Dwellers in Stone. 3. Gondolin = the Stone of Song. 4. Gwarestrin = the Tower of Guard. 5. Gar Thurion = the Secret Place. 6. Loth = Flower. 7. Lothengriol = the flower that blooms on the plain. We have then the Etymologies: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GOND- stone. Q ondo stone (as material); N gonn a great stone, or rock. [This original entry was retained, but the base was changed to GONOD-, GONDO-, and the following added:] Cf. Gondolin (see DUL); Gondobar (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar in the Lost Tales (II. 342.)] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I agree with you that only one of these names (probably Gondost) should be used. The only objection I can see to this is that both names appear in the Etymologies, suggesting that they existed at the same time, and thus that "Gondost" was not simply a replacement for "Gondobar". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin. You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies. -------------------- and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 153 \| From: Formenos \| Registered: May 2002 \| IP: Logged Aiwendil Wight Member # 320 Member Rated: posted August 11, 2002 10:55 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're right, but names "must" be dismised if we are going to have only 7 names for Gondolin. You might have the same problem with "Gonnobar", because it's also in the Etymologies. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed. So I think the list of names that it currently looks like we'll use is: Gondolin = "Stone song" Gondost (or maybe Gondobar) = "Stone city" Gondothrimbar (or maybe Gondolindrimbar) = "City of the dwellers in stone" Garthoren = "Fenced fort" Gwarestrin (or maybe Gwaraectrin) = "Tower of the guard" Loth = "Flower" Loth-a-ladwen (or maybe Loth-a-laden or Loth-en-laden) = "Lily of the plain" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 210 \| From: \| Registered: Mar 2001 \| IP: Logged [ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]