[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the presentation of the ATB suppose that it was probably written by Hobbits (most specifically, Bilbo and possibly Frodo)? While they were both more learned in Elvish lore than other Hobbits, there was much I'm sure they didn't know. Not to mention Bilbo's fondness for poetry, which often leans one in the direction of what sounds good rather than what presents an accurate picture of historical fact. It's not much to go on, alas. What is fact, what is fantasy? Enquiring minds want to know, but may never have an answer.

Tolkien's introduction to ATB is one of the funniest things he ever wrote! It's especially a treat to read if one has also read some of his 'serious' academic work. I've always rather fondly thought of it as his personal reply to those academics who ridiculed his work on the Legendarium, appended especially to such verse as appear in ATB.

But alas, alas! If all we have are hobbit translators for LotR and ATB, what works does that leave us with with any hope of--dare I say it--'canonicity'? Only I suppose those edited by Christopher Tolkien, whose work very much doesn't fall prey to poetry but is the very stuff of impeccable scholarship.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But Tom and Goldberry are sort of equal.

They are opposites, yet the same and they balance each other out.

All depends on what one means by "sort of equal" I think.

Originally Posted by davem

There is a third Bombadil poem which Tolkien didn't include in AoTB. It appeared in a 1969 collection called 'The Young Magicians' (story here: http://bromwell.dpsk12.org/stories/storyReader$179 )

Whatever would we do without the inspired efforts of principals such as the erudite Mr. Jonathan Wolfer.

Originally Posted by skip spence

As for the Goldberry's connection with Ulmo I can't think of anything clever to say

That's probably how we all felt reading Esty's enlightening associations from her music perusals.

Originally Posted by Legate

These are interesting points, however I think they both present the extreme point of view.

And is there a problem with extreme points of view?

Originally Posted by Legate

Last, as a related thing to Goldberry-Tom relationship in the poem, I would link here to Mr.Hookbill's thoughts posted here, which I find very good, very interesting and inspiring.

It is interesting, isn't it, how an idea pops up on one thread and doesn't seem to go anywhere and then presents itself again on another thread! I myself found the esteemed Mr. Hookbill's so inspiring that I was moved to offer yet other ruminations on Tom, which hypotheses are every bit as illuminating as any or all other ruminations I have ever offerred about the character.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...6&postcount=52

Frankly, and I shall be serious now, I think as Tolkien was just starting work on the sequel to TH he hankered after not only his thoughts about his composition of his children's bedtime story but also other writings he made for his children. And voila! There were Tom and Goldberry in LotR. I rather suspect there is a missing story which Tolkien wrote for his children about balrogs, and in the telling of it he had to entertain ever so many questions from his children, who clearly knew of Smaug's wings, about whether balrogs had wings, that the good father was prompted to make said appendenges as enigmatic in LotR as they were in this story as well.