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Old 10-20-2012, 10:54 AM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Sting Hobbit2 - Chapter 15 - The Gathering of the Clouds

In this chapter the story deviates from the usual fairy tale pattern - no "happily ever after" follows the killing of the dragon, but misunderstandings and hostility. That's a lot like real life!

The speaking birds do belong to Faerie, and their first task is to bring the good news of Smaug's death to Thorin, Bilbo and companions. But instead of being happy and thankful, Thorin lashes out aggressively against Roäc's good advice. He prepares to defend the mountain rather than actively seeking peace.

In the following parley with Bard and the messenger from Esgaroth Thorin not only avoids generosity but is unwilling to give in to just demands. Returning the treasures that were stolen from Men would seem to be a reasonable request that would not have diminished the wealth very much, but greed has closed Thorin's heart. He is under "the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded" as well as his "dwarvish heart".

Shooting an arrow at the messenger (admittedly aimed for the shield and not intended to kill, but still...) may not be quite as bad as MovieAragorn's beheading of the Mouth of Sauron, but it is certainly a breach of etiquette in a parley.

Though the majority of the dwarves seem to side with their king, we read that Bilbo was not the only one who was dissatisfied with Thorin's decision. Even his relatives and apparent heirs Fili and Kili do not agree with him. And Bilbo takes the parting words of the messenger seriously, that gold will not satisfy their hunger. His complaint that cram is sticking in his throat is certainly meant to be understood figuratively as well as literally.

How does this chapter make you feel about Thorin and the dwarves? Do you sympathize with them? Do you enjoy reading the passages about the caves and their fortifications and preparations? Do you think that Bard's demands are just?

I once heard a lecture about this chapter, claiming that Thorin could not have acted differently according to medieval code and custom. Unfortunately I don't have it in printed form and don't remember the details. Was he acting correctly? Could he have avoided the escalation of hostility by acting differently? Was he even capable of changing his attitude? And can we see an influence by one of the Great Rings behind all of this?


Here is the link to the previous discussion.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 10-20-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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