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Originally Posted by cellurdur
The nobility fought over many things and often had conflicting loyalties. People were loyal to their Lords and fought under them.
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A genereralization that does not hold up under scrutiny. The "people" were no more loyal than the ever-shifting nobility. One look at post-Black Death Europe and peasants fleeing manor holdings en masse seeking higher wages and freedom from the rigid tenancy of their feudal overlords would show that. To which "people" and "which "lords" are you referring to, and what time period and place? You hold an idealization that is about as true as saying "all U.S. citizens are and have been loyal to the federal government."
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Originally Posted by cellurdur
Where did I ever say the middle ages had a sense of "patriotism"? I have actually said the opposite. Whilst there was a national identity for certain countries, England being the most notable, there was very little patriotism or nationalism. The loyalty we have today was more often given to individual families.
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Again, to whom are you referring? Your ever-shifting argument is as confused as it is confusing.
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Originally Posted by cellurdur
The defeat of England in France had more to do with the trouble raising taxes and the death of Henry V than any growth of nationalism.
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Yes, that was part of my argument. What is yours, exactly?
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Originally Posted by cellurdur
A "Liege Lord" forced on you is not the same as a Lord you believe has been put there. Even back then you needed good PR to invent a reason why you had taken over land. What do you think the Bayeux tapestry was?
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When, in particular, did peasants think a lord was not forced on them? I am sure the nobility would stress their belief in a god-given right to rule, but I'm not sure their tenants would be on board.
And the Bayeux Tapestry was a wondeful bit of propaganda by Norman adherents of William the Bastard (probably his half-brother Odo, Bishop of Bayeux, but nothing is certain). That it resided in Normandy and not in England leaves some question as to its power as a piece of propaganda, since those subjugated probably never saw it.
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Originally Posted by cellurdur
A very different situation entirely. A war between two cousins, both the grandsons of a beloved king causes a lot of conflict. Especially when the reigning king is incompetent.
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Edward III and his unpopular mistress were largely ignored the last 20 or so years of his life. Edward did not die beloved.
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Originally Posted by cellurdur
The Magna Carter is but one example of the king being defeated and not being replaced.
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The "Magna Carter" is a hip hop album. I believe you mean the "Magna Carta".