[The Saucepan Man]

A few scattered thoughts, as always.

It struck me that it is greatly to Tolkien's credit that, Gimli having sought to explain the old man that appeared to them as a "phantom of Saruman", he can have Aragorn reply "It is likely enough" and get away with it. He has built up the credibility of the fantasy to such an extent by this point that we do not question the fact that Gimli's musings on phantoms might provide a "likely" explanation.

I was interested in the quote that davem gave from Treason of Isengard:

It seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see.

I have always been somewhat disinclined to see the old man as Saruman, given the startling similarity of his description to that of Gandalf when he does appear to them in this Chapter, the fact that the old man appears to mean no harm to them and the fact that the horses are (as it turns out) crying with joy rather than fear. I did therefore think that one possible explanation of the incident is that the old man is a "projected" image of Gandalf, either conjured up jointly in the minds of the Three Hunters (a kind of "mass halucination" which foreshadows Gandalf's reappearance to them) or an image projected by Gandalf himself (unconsciously - hence his later lack of awareness of the incident). It is interesting to see that Tolkien was thinking along similar lines, albeit with Saruman rather than Gandalf as the "projected" image.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I cannot now read this chapter, particularly Aragorn's and Legolas's discussion of the interpretation of "signs" , with Gimli's contributions as well, without being reminded of something. Their querulousness over the riddle of the knife and lembas crumbs, the cut ropes and the drying mallorn leaf, reminds me so much of Downer's habits of yaying and nay-saying over points of interpretation of LotR.

Which is probably why I enjoy this part of the Chapter so much. I love the way in which Tolkien constructs a riddle and then solves it via Aragorn. And these passages serve a multiple purpose. They once again point up Aragorn's skill at reading the signs that have been left behind (surpassing Legolas in this regard), provide some welcome humour (particularly in Legolas' comments concerning the propensity of Hobbits to value food in the direst of circumstances and in his light-hearted analyis of the clues), and they engage the reader (even though, or perhaps precisely because, the reader already knows the solution to the riddle).

One thing does mystify me in connection with the Three Hunters' eventual meeting with Gandalf. Although it clearly serves to heighten the tension of the moment, I do wonder why Gandalf chose to be so darn mysterious in his approach, keeping his face hooded and greeting them like strangers. It is almost as if he wants them to mistake him for Saruman. Is he perhaps playing a trick on them? Or even teaching them a lesson - not to go on the attack when not in full possession of the facts? But the latter explanation would go against his later comment:

But, of course, I never blamed you for your welcome of me. How could I do so, who have so often counselled my friends to suspect even their own hands when dealing with the Enemy.

So, why is Gandalf so mysterious here?

Moving onto the much discussed topic of Boromir and his redemption, there is a nice comment here by Gandalf:

But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.

Surely a clear indication that Boromir was in the end free of the Ring and that his valiant defence of Merry and Pippin does indeed redeem him. For me, this makes it clear that, when Aragorn tells the dying Boromir that he has conquered, he is talking of Boromir's will rather than his strength in arms against the orcs.

Most of the remainder of the Chapter is taken up with Gandalf's tale - a wonderful piece of exposition (surely an authorly crime ) which brings together much of what we have learned in recent Chapters and explain precisely how they affect the state of play between the Free Peoples and their Enemies.

I found the following passage concerning Gandalf interesting:

He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. "No," he said in a soft voice, "it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least we can be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring. We must go down to face a peril near despair, yet that dealy peril is removed.

It seemed to me, on reading this again, that Gandalf is here contemplating the possibility that, were it not beyond his reach, he might be tempted to use the Ring against Sauron. The deceits of the Ring are great indeed if even Gandalf recognises that he might have succumbed to them (as a companion to the Ringbearer, rather than as the Ringbearer himself). Does this not put Boromir's downfall in rather a different context?

Finally, to pick up on a few points made earlier:

Originally Posted by Estelyn

do you think what she says about laying his axe to the right tree has a meaning that is important to the plot, as the other two messages do?

Is this perhaps related to Gimli mistaking Gandalf for Saruman? Might Galadriel be warning him to be sure of his enemy before going on the offensive? Although, if so, it is rather late with regard to his mistaking Gandalf's identity, and it would seem to go against the comment by Gandalf quoted above. Alternatively, it might be a warning to Gimli not to go about hacking trees with abandon when in Fangorn - although this would merely be repeating Legolas' warning to him on entering the wood.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Also, the above observation of "not knowing what mighty one" seems at variance with the general view, shared by Tolkien himself in "Letters", that probably only Gandalf could use the Ring against him

Although there is perhaps a distinction to be drawn between what Sauron might fear and what would happen in practice. Sauron may have overestimated the power that the Ring could confer upon one less powerful than him.

Originally Posted by davem

This is odd, in the light of other statements by Tolkien that once the Ainur had entered into the world they had to remain there till its end.

But wasn't Gandalf a special case, in that Eru's direct intervention was required to "reclothe" him and allow him to return incarnate to carry on his mission? Perhaps, in light of this, Gandalf's spirit needed to travel beyond the Circles of the World, even though this might not be the "normal" fate of an incarnate Ainu upon the death of his or her physical body.