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Findegil · 09-21-2015, 10:36 AM

A second go on Comments:
CE-EX-24: This headline for the sub-chapter has no source in Tolkien. If someone has more authoritative idea I would gladly take it.
CE-EX-25: At this point the source info was wrong. Actually we change back to our basis text LQ.
CE-SL-10: Ælfwine is out of our version and this does together with our inserts provoke the grammatical change from {they}the Elves.
CE-SL-11: Oromë’s help in making language is mention some were else already and the rest is deleted due to Tolkiens own change.
CE-EX-26: The pure joy of the Valar at the coming of the Elves is only hinted at in the later legendarium. I see nothing that speaks against the more direct version of LT.
CE-EX-27: In the later legendarium Oromë seems no longer in need of his mother to tell him about the children of Eru.
CE-EX-28: Angainor is still valid as the inserts from MT show. So I think we should also take up it making. At least we should take the next paragraph with the counsel taken.
CE-EX-29: The change from the direct story telling of LT to the remote comments of the essays from MT adds a nice contrast.

CE-SL-12: In the later legendarium the Valar have to deal with Utumno and Angband.
CE-EX-30: The armour taking of the Valar might be to pictorial, but I find it still fitting.
CE-EX-31, -32: Okay, Makar and Messa have no place in our version.
CE-EX-33: In the later legendarium some tasks that were Nonores were taken up by Eönwë and of course all the parts of Fionwe. Thus we might choose if Eönwë should be behind Manwë on the chariot or go before.
CE-EX-34: Nahar, Orome’s horse is white not brown.
CE-EX-35: If one of the Valar of the later legendarium would be probable to have a son then it is Tulkas, but still I think it is much safer to leave Telimektar out of our version.
CE-SL-36: Ops! A pure numbering error it should be CE-SL-13. To the point itself, as we learn from MT even in this battle Melkor was not willing to fight it out personally.
CE-EX-36: Here follow a long insert from AAm which provides the best description of the war.
CE-EX-37: This is an insert in the insert. And it takes the breaking of the gates from LT. No later account is found how the Valar broke that gate, so why not by the magic of Oromë’s horn?
CE-EX-38: These changes are based on Tolkiens plan to reduce the number of the Balrogs and by that make them more formidable. As we have based our work in FoG on the assumption 3 or maximum 7 we are obliged to take this changes as well.
CE-EX-39: Here it is high time for this addition, as it explains nicely what the Valar had archived in the war up to this point.
CE-EX-40, -14: As explained in my last post, Morgoth has to go. But the theory here bound to that name is valid and for sure worth recording.
CE-EX-42: This is the only descriptive look into the pits of Utumno we will ever get. It would be a shame to lose it.
CE-EX-43: This is dangerous territory. Has Melkor given to the Orcs and Balrogs the power of recuperation and multiplication? Not if the Orcs were at least in part Elves, Men, Maiar or even pre-existing beasts and for the Balrogs not if they are Maiar. Therefore I think it much more safe to eliminate the examples.
CE-EX-44: Again a description from LT that never changed: The gates of Utumno were blocked but the caverns were still full of evil creatures that a times would find a way out.
CE-EX-45: We later seldom get a chance to ears drop on the Valar in council.
CE-EX-46: Again Makar the War-God of Tolkien that later was removed.
CE-SL-14: Melkor is no longer bound. He has to hold his peace by himself or his plans, recorded in the MT-passages would come to light.
CE-SL-15: Again: Melkor is unchained.
CE-EX-47: Here at long last we come back to our basis text. And we have to discuss if Melkor was bound with Angainor while he was prisoner in Mandos or not. My feeling is that this was not the case. The reclusion was probably not even meant as a punishment but a help in repentance and selfabasement in order to reassemble his ‘disperesed’ inherent power.
CE-SL-16 and -18: This rearrangement is due to my additions. Probably we can delete what follows as redundant, but found it more profitable to keep at least the three ages of peace.
CE-SL-17: Again we are talking of Utumno and Angband and not one of them alone.
CE-EX-48: Here we have the next chance to listen directly to the Valar in council.
CE-EX-49: Nearly a regular change from the later abounded children of the Valar to their folk.
CE-EX-50: Ulmo is the one Valar that we knew to oppose the bringing of the Elves to Valinor. Therefore I shifted this argument of Makar to him even so that might be discussed.
CE-EX-51: Again, we know that Ulmo was in opposition to this.
CE-EX-52: Being back in our basic text we add here the info who brought the message to Cuivienen.
CE-EX-53: The second council again reported most excellently in LT. Here might be mentioned that the motive for Ulmo’s smile is changed significantly. When it was written he hope for the Elves to come soon, now he has found some hope that they might refuse the summon.
CE-SL-20: The old timeline had Melkor in prison for a long time when the Elves arrived. This was clearly changed.
CE-EX-54 to -58: AAm and LT have here the fuller accounts and are therefore the texts I have chosen.

With CE-EX-59 begin the additions from Q&E, but since it is getting late already and I think I missed at least one of these, I will stop here and come back to it later this week.

About Ainairos: Up to now I have not included him or his role as leader of the Teleri party speaking against the Noldor after the kin-slying into my draft. But now he will be one of the points checked before I post these part of my draft.

Respectfully
Findegil

09-21-2015, 10:36 AM	#9
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	A second go on Comments: CE-EX-24: This headline for the sub-chapter has no source in Tolkien. If someone has more authoritative idea I would gladly take it. CE-EX-25: At this point the source info was wrong. Actually we change back to our basis text LQ. CE-SL-10: Ælfwine is out of our version and this does together with our inserts provoke the grammatical change from {they}the Elves. CE-SL-11: Oromë’s help in making language is mention some were else already and the rest is deleted due to Tolkiens own change. CE-EX-26: The pure joy of the Valar at the coming of the Elves is only hinted at in the later legendarium. I see nothing that speaks against the more direct version of LT. CE-EX-27: In the later legendarium Oromë seems no longer in need of his mother to tell him about the children of Eru. CE-EX-28: Angainor is still valid as the inserts from MT show. So I think we should also take up it making. At least we should take the next paragraph with the counsel taken. CE-EX-29: The change from the direct story telling of LT to the remote comments of the essays from MT adds a nice contrast. CE-SL-12: In the later legendarium the Valar have to deal with Utumno and Angband. CE-EX-30: The armour taking of the Valar might be to pictorial, but I find it still fitting. CE-EX-31, -32: Okay, Makar and Messa have no place in our version. CE-EX-33: In the later legendarium some tasks that were Nonores were taken up by Eönwë and of course all the parts of Fionwe. Thus we might choose if Eönwë should be behind Manwë on the chariot or go before. CE-EX-34: Nahar, Orome’s horse is white not brown. CE-EX-35: If one of the Valar of the later legendarium would be probable to have a son then it is Tulkas, but still I think it is much safer to leave Telimektar out of our version. CE-SL-36: Ops! A pure numbering error it should be CE-SL-13. To the point itself, as we learn from MT even in this battle Melkor was not willing to fight it out personally. CE-EX-36: Here follow a long insert from AAm which provides the best description of the war. CE-EX-37: This is an insert in the insert. And it takes the breaking of the gates from LT. No later account is found how the Valar broke that gate, so why not by the magic of Oromë’s horn? CE-EX-38: These changes are based on Tolkiens plan to reduce the number of the Balrogs and by that make them more formidable. As we have based our work in FoG on the assumption 3 or maximum 7 we are obliged to take this changes as well. CE-EX-39: Here it is high time for this addition, as it explains nicely what the Valar had archived in the war up to this point. CE-EX-40, -14: As explained in my last post, Morgoth has to go. But the theory here bound to that name is valid and for sure worth recording. CE-EX-42: This is the only descriptive look into the pits of Utumno we will ever get. It would be a shame to lose it. CE-EX-43: This is dangerous territory. Has Melkor given to the Orcs and Balrogs the power of recuperation and multiplication? Not if the Orcs were at least in part Elves, Men, Maiar or even pre-existing beasts and for the Balrogs not if they are Maiar. Therefore I think it much more safe to eliminate the examples. CE-EX-44: Again a description from LT that never changed: The gates of Utumno were blocked but the caverns were still full of evil creatures that a times would find a way out. CE-EX-45: We later seldom get a chance to ears drop on the Valar in council. CE-EX-46: Again Makar the War-God of Tolkien that later was removed. CE-SL-14: Melkor is no longer bound. He has to hold his peace by himself or his plans, recorded in the MT-passages would come to light. CE-SL-15: Again: Melkor is unchained. CE-EX-47: Here at long last we come back to our basis text. And we have to discuss if Melkor was bound with Angainor while he was prisoner in Mandos or not. My feeling is that this was not the case. The reclusion was probably not even meant as a punishment but a help in repentance and selfabasement in order to reassemble his ‘disperesed’ inherent power. CE-SL-16 and -18: This rearrangement is due to my additions. Probably we can delete what follows as redundant, but found it more profitable to keep at least the three ages of peace. CE-SL-17: Again we are talking of Utumno and Angband and not one of them alone. CE-EX-48: Here we have the next chance to listen directly to the Valar in council. CE-EX-49: Nearly a regular change from the later abounded children of the Valar to their folk. CE-EX-50: Ulmo is the one Valar that we knew to oppose the bringing of the Elves to Valinor. Therefore I shifted this argument of Makar to him even so that might be discussed. CE-EX-51: Again, we know that Ulmo was in opposition to this. CE-EX-52: Being back in our basic text we add here the info who brought the message to Cuivienen. CE-EX-53: The second council again reported most excellently in LT. Here might be mentioned that the motive for Ulmo’s smile is changed significantly. When it was written he hope for the Elves to come soon, now he has found some hope that they might refuse the summon. CE-SL-20: The old timeline had Melkor in prison for a long time when the Elves arrived. This was clearly changed. CE-EX-54 to -58: AAm and LT have here the fuller accounts and are therefore the texts I have chosen. With CE-EX-59 begin the additions from Q&E, but since it is getting late already and I think I missed at least one of these, I will stop here and come back to it later this week. About Ainairos: Up to now I have not included him or his role as leader of the Teleri party speaking against the Noldor after the kin-slying into my draft. But now he will be one of the points checked before I post these part of my draft. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-22-2015 at 07:27 AM.