[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Those attributes derive from a long history of misogyny, a history which is predominate in literature of the middle ages, but not limited to that time. Most of the attributes refer to bodily functions in their most repellant aspects, such as the stench, the uncontrolled appetite, the vast breeding, the voracious feeding upon others, the despicable way they uspet man's self-control. The Lilith legend is part of this, (although, as I say, MacDonald's Lilith is not given the extensive sensory imagery which Tolkien gives Shelob, even though MacDonald's Lilith has a fearful animal form. MacDonald's Lilith is Victorian, which Tolkien's is not. The Angel in the House cast a long shadow). Tolkien I think was brilliant in clothing this legendary aspect of early literature in animal form and not in human female form, but the tradition of fear of the female body is nonetheless made available in his story.

Sort of. It has to be pointed out here that there is a strong pre-Christian tradition of the 'dark Goddess', which derives from matriarchal cultures, & has a profound mystical/psychological meaning. The Dark Goddess is a figure who presides over initiation & transformation, & her 'loathly' aspect is merely the way we encounter her in our initial confrontation. There are some very valuable insights into this tradition to be found in stories like the Hanes Taliesin in the Mabinogion, the Marriage of Sir Gawain, & the Irish tales of the Lady Sovereignty. In short, we're not dealing with simple 'mysogyny', but with an ancient tradition which has been 'spun' in large part by the political church. Its dangerous to take ancient lore & interpret it in the light of modern feminist theory. One thing that should be borne in mind is that these female archetypes, Lilith included, were either originally beautiful & became ugly, or originally ugly & became beautiful. This has nothing to do with any kind of 'punishment' or 'reward', as originally the transformations were entirely under the control of the Goddess herself. We have to keep in mind that the versions we have were originally set down in writing by the monks & scribes of the early church, who either had their own axe to grind, or simply didn't understand the meaning of the stories. There is a male equivalent in the 'wild man' figures (ie Lancelot, or Merlin in the Vita) who are originally handsome warriors, but are transformed by traumatic experiences into wild figures, running mad in the forests or wilds, unrecognisable as the persons they had been, & often 'magically' covered from head to toe in hair. Suffice to say that the principal way in which Shelob differs from Lilith, & her 'sisters' is that she has never been 'beautiful' or 'wise'. She lacks not only that aspect, but also, & most importantly, the power to change her loathly aspect. She is what she appears, & nothing more. What she lacks, principally, is 'mystery'.

Why does this matter to me? What does it add to my understanding of Tolkien? It allows me to see how his ideological framework works its way out in LotR. In that ideology, the pure, beautiful, and muse-like female, worshipped on the pedastle, counterbalances the disgusting, fearful female of chaotic impulse. Does Tolkien's Shelob have to be read this way? By no means! Yet for me this supplies another layer of wonder to the richness of Tolkien's imaginative creation. This is, to me, thoroughly in keeping with Tolkien's thoughts about how the imagination gathers, chooses, combines material to bring forth new revelation.

Of course, Shelob could be seen as the 'Shadow' of Galadriel. As Jung pointed out, the brighter the light, the darker the shadow it casts. Shelob may be interpreted as an amalgam of all the 'female' (or perhaps better, the human)aspects of Galadriel, which have been sacrificed in her 'deification'. But, at least in her LotR manifestation, Galadriel is far from a 'goddess'. She is a fallen penitent, fighting the long defeat.

It is quite possible to view Shelob/Galadriel as the light & dark aspects of the Goddess (Lilith or one of her sisters), as it is possible to see in the Gandalf/Sauron pairing the twin aspects of Odin - wandering wizard//necromancer, but this leads to confusion, in my opinion, because just as Gandalf & Sauron are autonomous figures, with histories & motivations which do not correspond in any way to the history & motivations of Odin, so Shelob & Galadriel do not partake of the myth of Lilith in any significant way.

Shelob is, first & foremost, a big monster, & the role she plays is not that of Lilith, but of the 'killer' of Frodo & the nemesis of Sam. She is made as ugly & threatening, as monstrous in every aspect, as possible - mostly, I would say, for very simple reasons - the main one being that the confrontation with her creates a magnificent climax to the Frodo/Sam/Gollum storyline. Yes, Shelob is female, but that was dictated, I think, by Ungoliant being female. Ungoliant was the manifestation of 'unlight', of the void, that which consumes & absorbs into itself all light.

But, it could be argued, that's only pushing the Shelob/Lilith 'equality' back a stage, & that it actually strengthens the argument of equivalence by 'doubling' it. Perhaps. But there is a very ancient tradition that the deity that initiates the apocalypse is female. This can be seen in the Prophecies of Merlin in Geoffrey's History of the Kings of Britain, where the Goddess 'Ariadne' 'unweaves' the cosmos she created in the beginning & takes back everything into the void. She creates (or 'weaves) all things into being at the Beginning, & destroys ('unweaves') all things at the End. So, we have both aspects of the primal Goddess manifest, the creator & the destroyer, the one who builds up & the one who breaks down. Ultimately She manifests the forces of both anabolism & catabolism. This also accounts for 'her' association with the spider.

Now, Tolkien has presented us with multiple 'light' 'goddesses', principally Elbereth & her 'avatars' Galadriel & Melian, & also with 'dark' goddesses, again principally Shelob & Ungoliant. As with Odin, these 'Light' & 'Dark' aspects are split off, & seen from that perspective both aspects lose somthing of the depth, conflict & mystery of the original archetypes, but this is what we have from the hand of Tolkien. As I said in another thread, Shelob & Galadriel (as Gandalf & Sauron) must stand by what they are within the world they inhabit. The more external, primary world, input that is necessary to elucidate them the less effective they are as characters in their own right, & the more they become cyphers or 'allegories'.

Now, it could be argued that the root cause of this 'split' was Tolkien's own attitude to death, his desire to understand & make sense of the 'gift' of death. Death becomes a problem to be solved, or at the least an ugly thing which must be explained & shown to have purpose in a universe created & ruled over by a loving God. The original myths from which the Lilith stories derive saw life & death as aspects of each other, with the Goddess standing at each 'gate', giving life & being & taking it away. Once the division of life=good & death=evil comes into play such archetypes fragment & no longer serve a useful purpose.

So, there you have it - my interminable ramblings on why Lilith isn't Shelob - which I know isn't what you claimed at all, but I'm posting it for what its worth...