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Old 02-27-2013, 03:16 PM   #31
Aganzir
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
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Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
One thing we need to remember about history-writing in Middle-earth is that it's mostly from the Elves' point of view and may therefore be biased in some cases. Their definition of evil may not always correspond with that of the Dwarves'. I think it's fair to use the Petty Dwarves as an example here - they did something awful enough to be cast out, but they were never that many. I interpret this as meaning that the Dwarves were okay with forgiving most crimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan View Post
But I wonder about this. Why were there no grudges remembered from the time of the Last Alliance during the War of the Dwarves and Orcs? This was the question that basically launched my questioning in this area.
I believe some Dwarves who fought for Sauron could also have seen themselves as primarily siding against the Elves. They might have put their little quarrels with the Orcs aside for that because the Thingol incident was much more personal.

I've always thought the passage about the Dwarves fighting each other is more about occasional skirmishes than anything serious and long-running. After all, they generally stick together. There are two quotes which I believe haven't been brought up yet:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durin's Folk, Appendix A
Durin's Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the other Houses of other Fathers; for this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath.
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Originally Posted by The Making of Appendix A, The Peoples of Middle-Earth
For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as 'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge Thrór.
As for the latter, Durin's Race can be read as either the House of Durin or all Dwarves, right? Anyway, Thrór's murder was big enough an offense against the entire race to set aside grudges between Houses, but when it was done, the Dwarves of the other Houses were quick to leave for their homes after the Battle of Azanulbizar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan View Post
However, the Rings were designed to lead everybody to an evil end. In the case of Men, the Rings performed admirably and as Sauron intended. In the case of the Dwarves, they did not work as Sauron intended. In the case of the Elves they didn’t really work at all. I think from this evidence, one might conclude that Sauron had more of an insight into Men than anybody else.
They didn't work with the Elves because Sauron didn't forge them, so we can probably leave them out here.
I don't think Aulë explained Sauron anything about the Dwarves in Valinor, and besides it's questionable whether Sauron was still hanging out there by the time Aulë created the Dwarves or if he had already moved his things to Utumno. But he must have been familiar with them instinctively - being one of Aulë's Maiar, he had tuned his music to his and must have been aware of his way of thinking and creating; while none of the Ainur fully understood the theme with the Children of Ilúvatar.
I am therefore quite sure it was Dwarves' natural resistance to manipulation that thwarted Sauron rather than any particular knowledge, or lack of it, on his part, and Men succumbed so completely just because they are weak.

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While we don’t know, it seems reasonable to surmise that this information would have been relayed eastwards, especially given the amount of time that passed.
How about them messenger ravens, or was that a privilege reserved exclusively to the House of Durin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
So, I've always wondered, what makes Gimli different from the rest of his greedy dwarf brethren? Or are there more dwarves like Gimli where gold and riches hold no influence over them?
I doubt he would've joined the Fellowship if he had been the greedier sort of a Dwarf. He would've gone home after the Council and, like, digged for gold.

Anyway, think of Fíli and Kíli who started playing harps while most of the other Dwarves caressed and fingered the treasure after getting into the Mountain. Then think of Finrod Felagund who wasn't a haughty and arrogant fellow like most other Noldor. It's never that simple.
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