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Old 05-27-2016, 06:07 AM   #24
Gothmog, LoB
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@Morthonon:

Yeah, Lúthien played an important part in Beren's heroics. But she is still just his helper in the quest, and the means she uses to help him are clearly identifiable as connected to her female gender.

She does not fight with swords or other weapons, and she doesn't use any violence at all. In fact, she only uses spells to hide herself and Beren, and to escape. It is Huan who defeats Draugluin and Sauron, not Lúthien. And finally she sings a lullaby for Morgoth and his court. That certainly is a great task, but it is certainly not the way a male elf would have accomplished the same thing. He would have defeated both Sauron and Morgoth in battle (or rather he would have been able to knock off Morgoth's crown all by himself to cut the Silmaril out of it).

I know that Galadriel is also tempted by the Ring in Lórien. But it is also about her wish to rule great lands of her own in Middle-earth, and those are, in essence, un-womanly desires because generally only male elves are rulers in Tolkien's world. Galadriel's desires are an exception from the rule, not the rule. The only female Noldor of importance are Aredhel and Idril - and Idril is a good daughter whereas Aredhel shares some of Galadriel's traits. But she never decides a realm of her own just freedom (and not being a good girl she is severely punished for that desire, allowing evil to enter Gondolin in the process).

And we should also keep in mind that Tolkien never gives us a scene in which a man (be it Gandalf, Elrond, or Glorfindel) shows similar signs of being tempted by the One Ring. They certainly would have been, presumably, but it is Galadriel the woman who is actually tempted by the Ring. Just compare her to Faramir who is so much above this kind of thing. Not to mention Aragorn. One can wonder why that is?

As to the White Council:

Honestly, I only see them as a debating society. They accomplished nothing, regardless whether Saruman is to blame for that or not. There is no hint that they ever included to truly militarily powerful Stewards of Gondor or the Kings of Rohan into their design. How do you think the White Council could have challenged Sauron if they lacked the troops to do so? The attack of the White Council on Dol Guldur in 2941 TA was a farce. Sauron was prepared to and intended to leave the place anyway because it was time to move to Mordor.

Yeah, Sauron fled Gandalf in 2063 TA but that was nearly a millennium earlier and had presumably more to do with the fact that he wasn't fully incarnated yet and/or not strong enough to prevail against an Istar in a direct confrontation. Not to mention that he didn't want the Wise to learn yet that he had returned (or was in the long process of returning).

@Belegorn:

If we would do a real gender discussion where usually various attributes of character are coded to be 'male' or 'female' then one could actually say that all the Noldor who repented and went to Eressea overcame their male nature of being dominant, powerful, and active. Even Tolkien uses symbolism to depict that when he has Saruman say that they will return in a grey ship full of ghosts. Saying that they would behave like frightful old women wouldn't be that much different.

But then, Galadriel is technically the only exiled Noldo of note left in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age (unless we consider Gildor Inglorion as another descendant of Finarfin - say, through an unknown sister of Orodreth or something like that) so she is the only one who has to cope with the whole Ban of the Valar thing. She is the only one who is still rebellious until she finally gives in and returns.

@Alcuin:

It seems to me that there was no rule/law in effect that stipulated agnatic succession. The whole (high-)kingship of the Noldor is actually a marred thing. Finwe is the only true king of the Noldor but he eventually died - and even before that his kingship was marred and twisted because of Feanor's exile and Finwe's decision to accompany his son to Formenos and technically give up his kingship until such time as he can live with his son again in his house in Tirion.

Finwe's succession isn't clear, either, most likely because the entire concept is new and essentially 'wrong' because elves are not supposed to die. Finwe's two marriages brought strife into his own house, setting up a rivalry between Míriel's son and Indis' children that essentially caused a struggle for power even before Finwe was killed.

It is clear that Fingolfin enjoyed more support than Feanor and his sons even during the flight of the Noldor. If Fingolfin had wanted to seize the kingship he most likely could have done so because he would have had more support (what prevented him from doing so was apparently his previous oath to Feanor to follow his elder brother).

After Feanor's death his sons most likely simply lacked the power and popularity to seize the kingship over all the Noldor - even if we assume that Maedhros would have wanted to do so after he had been saved by Fingon (which was clearly not the case). Offering Fingolfin the kingship was both a move to save face as well as an attempt to reconcile the exiled Noldor.

And then afterwards childless Fingon and eventually Turgon succeed to the kingship.

But we should not assume the high-kingship was governed by any written or official laws. The very concept of succession itself would have been a fruit of the evil of Arda Marred, and subsequently Eru's true plan for the Quendi would have been that they are ruled by one and the same chieftains/lords/kings throughout the entire history of Arda. Because originally the Elves were not supposed to be slain nor to wane with the age of the earth.

As to the status of the original leaders of the Quendi:

The main problem for Finwe being one of the first is that it is actually stated that he and Míriel only fell in love with each other/had their son Feanor in Aman. So Finwe cannot have been Tata, or one of the other unbegotten elves. And the same goes for Elwe because he, too, was without a spouse until he met Melian. However, Ingwe is another matter. We know all the Minyar went to Aman, so Ingwe certainly could have been identical with Imin. The fact that he has a sister (who is either identical with Indis or her mother) doesn't contradict that. The Feanturi are also called brothers, and Nienna is their sister. If something like that can be the case with the Valar (where it most likely refers to something different from 'biological kinship') then there is no reason why we cannot assume the unbegotten elves had 'siblings', too.

Finwe and Elwe/Olwe's father might have remained behind with the Avari. But Ingwe's father (if he wasn't Imin himself) couldn't have remained behind. So the only explanation for Ingwe not being Imin would be that Imin was one of the poor guys who were either slain or captured by Melkor's minions, but that would mean we have to believe the first Vanya was also the father of the Orcs or himself the first Orc (if we go with the assumption that there must have been Orcs of Quendi-origin in the First Ages, which I think we have to assume). I'm not sure Tolkien would have liked or espoused that possibility if he had ever thought about that.

I'm wondering whether it could make more sense to see Elmo as son of Olwe rather than his and Elwe's brother. We have no idea when Olwe had his first children, and the Elmo chap easily could have been born at Cuiviénen but deciding to stay back and look for his uncle. He could have died in the First Battle to leave his son Celeborn behind in Doriath.

I'm not sure being high-king of the Noldor is more than an honorific, actually. There are no hints that Fingolfin and Fingon/Turgon had any authority over the other Noldorin princes, most especially not about Finrod and Nargothrond (but also not over Feanor's sons). In addition, later on Gil-galad clearly only has authority in Lindon. He cannot command Galadriel or Celebrimbor.
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