[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

What is your argument here? That a certain thing is good because it is popular? That, in and of itself, is an instance of "ad populum" fallacy. Yes, I argue that there is a degree of immorality if we delight in evil qualities, and the fact that many people find it acceptable doesn't make it so. If I may quote Gandhi, the truth is the truth even if spoken by one single person.

Think about it logically. That so many people find some fun in reading about or watching bad guys would logically mean said billions of people would also be out slaughtering, raping and thieving if liking a bad guy is immoral. But they aren't.

Many villify the video game industry for peddling games based on violence, but only a tiny handful of people who play said games are violent and these are people who you find were usually disturbed to begin with. Even those who supposedly only like thoroughly 'wholesome' things who are disturbed are perfectly capable of turning those 'wholesome' things into sickness, as shown by the sicko who visited my blog this week or the priests and pastors found guilty of crimes against children.

Being into good or bad characters has absolutely no bearing on a person's intentions.

Your argument is irrelevant because it doesn't address the question, which concerned our attitudes towards evil persons - and not what makes a person evil or not, and not what should we do about books where evil characters appear.

Yes it does. The question asks us if people who like 'bad guys' are evil. The answer is "don't be silly".

There's one bad guy who is utterly repellent, more so than anything you'll find in Tolkien, but who has turned out to be some weird kind of anti-hero to decent people the world over. Hannibal Lecter.

In the novel Hannibal we see him on the loose, up to his old tricks, but when the other gang of bad guys are about to feed him to the man-eating pigs we're hoping against hope that he gets free. Even Clarice Starling, his nemesis hopes that he gets free. Bear in mind that this guy is a pure sociopath, someone beyond all hope of reason, beyond cure, he is as close to pure evil as you could hope to get in this world. He east people's faces! But we want him to get away!

Concerning your first example, Tolkien is a foremost defender of the idea that fairy-tales and religion are not mutually exclusive - quite the contrary.

Fairy tales are the remnants of the Old Religion, and the New Religion appropriated so much from it that of course it also appropriated the Fairy tales where it could. Tolkien's theory on Fairy Tale reflecting Christianity doesn't really work in truth because fairy tale is beyond the constraints of religion, in many cases existed as a rebellion and defence against religion - his thoughts are more those of a man trying to reconcile his faith with his fascination for the blood thirsty and deeply pagan.

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

Exploring the attraction of the bad guys is one thing, but maligning the people who like them is entirely a different matter. I think the direction and tone of the thread needs a change, then, if this is the case.

Indeed. Let's be careful as there are many people on here who could easily be offended by being tarred with the 'evil' brush. Just as we don't appreciate being told we don't understand Tolkien's work because we are not Christian we also get the 'ump when told we are evil for maybe getting a kick out of reading about Saruman or Orcs or Dragons.