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Old 07-25-2001, 09:18 PM   #67
jallanite
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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

The transition section is mostly pinned down here. Not much point on going on about all the good parts. Here's where I differ or have suggestions.

There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with &quot;Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'&quot;, though the matter of names has not been brought up yet.

I suggest starting a little further back in FG with:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then spake Tuor also and questioned {where they might be, and} who might be the folk in arms who stood about, for he was somewhat in amaze and wondered much at the goodly fashion of their weapons. Then 'twas said to him by one of that company: &quot;We are the guardians of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of Seven Names where all who war with M[orgoth] may find hope.&quot;<hr></blockquote>I remove the phrase &quot;where they might be&quot; as it is already a strangely unperceptive question in the original, and really cannot stand in the new version where Tuor knows much more from Elemma[c]il and the passing of the other gates. But something is needed to lead into Tuor's question about &quot;these names&quot;. And that question about the &quot;folk in arms&quot; follows perfectly from the end of Tuor where we have just been told that<blockquote>Quote:<hr> upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented;<hr></blockquote>It is not surprising that Tuor asks about this array of folk greater than he has yet seen.

Is the chief of the Guard to be Elemmacil or Ecthelion? From Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.<hr></blockquote>Also Elemmacil salutes Ecthelion rather than Echthelion saluting Elemmacil, and the tone of Elemmacil's words are slightly subservient.

For Gondothlimbar we find in &quot;Etymologies&quot; under GOND-<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gondobar (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar[/i] in the Lost Tales (II.*342).]<hr></blockquote>CT's note is to the point. Use JRRT's own new form: Gondothrimbar. It is gond 'stone' + ost 'fortress' + rim 'people' + bar 'dwelling'. For ost + r- = othr- refer to &quot;Etymologies&quot; stem OS- where appears:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> othrond fortress, city in underground caves = ost-round (see ROD).<hr></blockquote> Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister.

Tolkien probably intended Gar Thurian to be replaced by the Garth(th)oren of the &quot;Etymologies&quot;, which we would write as Garthoren of course. But, as you point out, the meaning of the name has changed. Gar meaning 'place' seems to entirely disappear in true Sindarin and 'garth' is definitely 'fort, fortress'. Changing 'place' to 'fort' in the translation is not a problem. Changing the meaning of the second element, however, destroys the explanation for the name as given. But, perhaps:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Garthoren or the {Secret Place} &lt; Etym: GARAT- Fenced Fort&gt;, for I am {hidden} <u>fenced away</u> from the eyes of M[orgoth].<hr></blockquote>So the name is kept (in its new form) and the meaning is changed per JRRT's notes.
If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven.

Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in &quot;The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin&quot; in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. But Loth-a-ladwen is not much better for using as later Sindarin. We have no later case of a meaning 'of' or 'the' or 'of the' and ladwen is never found outside of BoLT save this one time. I am inclined to keep it as is, however, as possibly &quot;poetical&quot; and not pure Sindarin. The translation in &quot;The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin&quot; is &quot;the Lily of the Plain&quot;, which fits with the note in &quot;Etymologies&quot; under LOT(H)-<blockquote>Quote:<hr> losse blossom (usually owing to association with olosse snow, only used of white blossom [see GOLÓS]).<hr></blockquote>I think Loth-a-ladwen is intended to mean the flower we call Lily-of-the-Valley, used metaphorically of Gondolin, whence the translation &quot;Lily of the Plain&quot; which would be the literal meaning of the Elvish name. Since this translation appears in &quot;The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin&quot; it should be used as the most up-to-date, as well as agreeing with the original BoLT entry Lósengriol in the Appendix to BoLT 2 as 'flower of the vale or lily of the valley'. Possibly merge the information from the Lay which reads:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Loth, the Flower, they name me, saying 'Côr is born again,
even in Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily of the Plain.'<hr></blockquote>The prose could be rendered:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but those who love me most greatly &lt; Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,&gt; call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} &lt; Lay Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily&gt; that blooms on the plain.<hr></blockquote> Gwarestrin I am also inclined to keep. It contains the elements gwar, still valid in Amon Gwared and trin which is supposedly a contraction of Tirion. So the meaning &quot;Tower of the Guard' certainly fits. Only esc does not (recognizably) appear in later Sindarin which does not necessarily mean it was dropped.

I think the normal policy should be that BoLT Elvish forms that are not replaced by later counterparts and can't be supported as valid forms in the later legendarium or with great certainty converted to such should be dropped. But the need to keep the seven names for me takes priority for me. Rather than inventing forms or substituting totally different names, I'd rather change the translation of one of the names according to JRRT's own words, and keep the two of the seven that are dubious Sindarin.

For Loth-a-ladwen, I suppose we could use Loth Land. But I don't like that. I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.)

I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur.

Q30 is very explicit about the journey across the plain:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thither they were led and passed the gates of steel, and were brought before the step of the palace of the king.<hr></blockquote>The gates of steel are here the gates of Gondolin. The journey of Tuor and Voronwë alone is here rejected.

Probably change as follows:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and said {the chief of the guard} [Ecthlelion] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin {; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for}<u>*:*</u> &quot;Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmmost plain.&quot; Then Tuor and his companion {fared} &lt; Q30 were led&gt; over the plain that was of a marvellous ...&quot;<hr></blockquote>I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone.

P.4 Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go.

P.5 The description of Tuor as rugged and clad in skins is well enough in the original FG. But what now of his Elvish armour? I suggest here be inserted the description of his armour found later in FG where it is introduced as a gift from Turgon to Tuor.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp <u>and his </u> &lt;armour&gt; &lt;made of [Noldo]-steel overlaid with silver; {but} <u>and</u> his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield<u>. But r</u>&gt;ugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skin of bears.<hr></blockquote>I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot;, under Sindar:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.<hr></blockquote>In this late writing Noldor are still &quot;lithe&quot;, that is slender. Lets try this:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,} <u>Y</u>et was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. I}<u>, though i</u>ndeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth], but {small were} they <u>were</u> &lt; QE strong and tall, but&gt; slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by M[orgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.<hr></blockquote>One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping.

P.6 Some of this might be used to augment material treating on the origin of Orks. You are right to drop it here.

P.7 I have also come to feel that the &quot;House of Hador&quot; substitution you use is indeed the best. The swan element of the FG at this point is now present with Tuor's shield and helm instead.

P.11 I think Turgon's speech may be retained with revisions:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, &lt; TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,&gt; and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, &lt; TO {with a} = /and at his side/ a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath&gt;, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. &quot;Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom} <u>foretold by Ulmo</u>, {and it has been written} <u>saying</u> that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} &lt; QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men&gt; whenso thou faredst hither.['] &lt; QS77 [A]nd upon the King's right hand there stood ....<hr></blockquote>The FG written prophecies are the counterparts to Ulmo's prophecy in later writings and I think something like this might be the minimal change in wording to translate the old account to fit the new. Turgon is of course trying to put the best light on the prophecy.

I am tempted to suggest that Glamdring 'Foehammer' be inserted here as the name of Turgon's sword. But *Sigh!* we cannot know that the sword Turgon is wearing here or at any time in the tale is actually Glamdring. He might have worn Glamdring for years, for example, then bestowed it on another. He might have one sword for state occasions and one for battle.

I also suggest re-using here in describing Idril the phrase from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), &quot;The Later Quenta Silmarillion&quot;, 12:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor.<hr></blockquote>The reader will probably have forgotten this bit of information from the tale of the founding of Gondolin, and it would would provide a vivid touch here at the beginning of the real story of Idril. It also distinguishes Idril from the dark-haired Lúthien.

P.23 Possibly a little more of Tuor's words from Ulmo can be fitted in. At least his introduction:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. &quot;Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who makest deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men<u>.</u><hr></blockquote>Then follow with the standard Q30/ QS77 summary. JRRT does seem to have later dropped altogether the idea that Ulmo urged Turgon to take action other than abandoning Gondolin, and so most of the BoLT account of the message and Turgon's response does have to go.

On the matter of style here, we will have to see when the Maeglin material and other matter of Turgon's stay in Gondolin is fitted in, at what point it is best that the modern style ceases and the archaic style begins. Until then I think the safest is to build the base text with exact words as you are doing.

You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used.

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