[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I appreciate that the relationship of the Eldar and the ainur is different to contemporary religion, a matter of knowledge rather than faith, but surely "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" is a hymn of praise to Varda not just a song. So, in a small way, worship..

Surely to those of deep faith, it's also a matter of 'knowledge' that their God exists? A song of worship or reverence can just as well have no religious connotation - surely there are many examples of what I might call 'faithless wonder'? The thought that springs to mind is the starry eyed wonder of astrophysicists for the Universe - they are creatures of Science and usually reject religion completely but almost always display total wonderment and reverence for the cosmos...

...Richard Dawkins would probably beat me with one of his polemic books for that, but I have seen Prof Brian Cox so I beg to differ with him

Originally Posted by Ardent

I don't think the matter of knowledge over belief is that clear cut in ME. The Eldar got their creation story from Rumil, who must have written it down for some purpose, even if only to inform the younger races. Gandalf, a Maiar, had to struggle to recall his memories as a disembodied being:

"... since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten." The White Rider.

"...Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten..." The Window on the West.

If the reciting of hymns and rhymes is a natural means of reminding an embodied being (Hröa = body/consciousness) of their Fëa (spirit/subconscious) existance, then the Rings of Power can be seen as an artifical means of doing so. The Rings seem like psychedelic drugs; they break down the barrier between the Fëa and Hröa but take hold of their owners in a way which sounds like addiction. Like a lamp which burns faster than its wick can absorb or replenish its oil, they can leave their wearer/addict feeling 'stretched'.

Hmmm, I like where this is going I think...What about how this would affect an Elf? How would it be different to how it might affect a Man or Hobbit?

And what about Dwarves? We know that the effects of the Rings on them were somewhat unexpected to Sauron. They changed them, perhaps made them greedy, but they did not come under his control - and we know they were created in a different way.

We certainly know that the One Ring had effects similar to a drug on the bearers, that analogy has been drawn many a time, and I think it's a fair one. Hobbits might be able to deal with beer and cigs, but Rings are another matter.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is Tolkien touching on the folklorish motifs of Faery, where a mortal misstep lands one in a different dimension (like Tir Na nOg) which moves outside of time. Such time shifts can be seen in everything from the Irish tale of Oisin to Washington Irving's Rip Van Winkle to Queen's song '39. Although guitarist Brian May, an astrophysicist in his spare time, was also inferring space travel in the song.

The Perilous Realm...often danger is linked to the timeslip in faery, which may go some way to explaining the fear that some have in Middle-earth for Lothlorien.

I keep thinking about Diviner's Sage, which apparently when chewed throws the user into a deep altered consciousness frequently involving significant time shifts, yet it is all over in five minutes.