The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”

Gothmog, LoB · 06-11-2016, 02:17 PM

@Zigûr & Alcuin:

I've just rechecked the context of letter #211, and it actually did lead to a revision of LotR on the whole O/A discrepancy that is discussed earlier.

Earlier Akallabêth versions do not include the lines about Sauron taking up the Great Ring, so it would make sense to assume Tolkien's thoughts on the whole questions raised there might also have affected his later rewriting of The Akallabêth.

After all, that letter was written in 1958.

Anyway, in universe Ar-Pharazôn might not have known about the One Ring but once Tolkien had decided that three Nazgûl were going to be powerful Númenóreans it would be very difficult to imagine the Kings of Númenor never getting information about the Rings of Power - or rather that Sauron was giving away such Rings.

I don't think Gil-galad and the Elves told Minastir and his people what exactly was going on but they must have known that some old servant of Morgoth's had returned, and so on.
And once the Númenóreans had established their permanent colonies further down south they would also have clashed with Sauron occasionally.

We don't know where the dwarves and men lived who received the Seven and Nine, so the tale about Sauron giving them away could easily have reached the ears of the Númenóreans. And the effects the Rings had on the three Númenóreans who became Nazgûl must have not escaped the others. Perhaps they didn't know what was going on, perhaps they never found out, but they would eventually have learned that Ring-wraiths existed in Middle-earth, and that should have enabled them to connect the dots.

Even if not, the question is whether Sauron would have known and risked losing the Ring to Ar-Pharazôn? I mean, the man could have searched him, could even have forced him to undress and hand him all valuables. Sauron's plan was based on winning the trust of the Númenóreans and he most certainly had to spring to quite a few hoops before he won the trust of the King.

And I simply find the idea that he would have taken the Ring with him under such circumstances very unlikely indeed. Especially in light of the quotes from the actual texts.

06-11-2016, 02:17 PM	#31
Gothmog, LoB Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 38	@Zigûr & Alcuin: I've just rechecked the context of letter #211, and it actually did lead to a revision of LotR on the whole O/A discrepancy that is discussed earlier. Earlier Akallabêth versions do not include the lines about Sauron taking up the Great Ring, so it would make sense to assume Tolkien's thoughts on the whole questions raised there might also have affected his later rewriting of The Akallabêth. After all, that letter was written in 1958. Anyway, in universe Ar-Pharazôn might not have known about the One Ring but once Tolkien had decided that three Nazgûl were going to be powerful Númenóreans it would be very difficult to imagine the Kings of Númenor never getting information about the Rings of Power - or rather that Sauron was giving away such Rings. I don't think Gil-galad and the Elves told Minastir and his people what exactly was going on but they must have known that some old servant of Morgoth's had returned, and so on. And once the Númenóreans had established their permanent colonies further down south they would also have clashed with Sauron occasionally. We don't know where the dwarves and men lived who received the Seven and Nine, so the tale about Sauron giving them away could easily have reached the ears of the Númenóreans. And the effects the Rings had on the three Númenóreans who became Nazgûl must have not escaped the others. Perhaps they didn't know what was going on, perhaps they never found out, but they would eventually have learned that Ring-wraiths existed in Middle-earth, and that should have enabled them to connect the dots. Even if not, the question is whether Sauron would have known and risked losing the Ring to Ar-Pharazôn? I mean, the man could have searched him, could even have forced him to undress and hand him all valuables. Sauron's plan was based on winning the trust of the Númenóreans and he most certainly had to spring to quite a few hoops before he won the trust of the King. And I simply find the idea that he would have taken the Ring with him under such circumstances very unlikely indeed. Especially in light of the quotes from the actual texts.