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Old 06-03-2017, 05:20 PM   #17
Kuruharan
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,577
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigūr View Post
The essay on Orcs in Morgoth's Ring does mention "trained armies" of Sauron's Orcs: "the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command." He also points out that "many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship," which is interesting. I like the idea that Dwarves are the standard for endurance, and it's noteworthy that some Orcs were trained to comparable levels.
That's a good find, but I find it interesting that we don't seem to run into such orcs much in the stories.

I've re-read the sections on the Battle of the Pelennor from The Return of the King. Humans seem to have been Saruon's most effective troops in that battle. After the arrival of Aragorn the orcs are not referenced again, but rather the Easterlings and Haradrim are stated to have stayed and fought. Even before that point the Easterlings and Haradrim are referenced as antagonists more frequently than orcs. The orcs seem to have been primarily used for manual labor in digging siege lines and manning heavy artillery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivriniel View Post
Servants or no, it implies a parental relationship.
There is nothing in the books that implies anything other than an exploitative relationship.

I'm quite curious as to what instances you can cite of Morgoth's or Sauron's genuine care for the welfare of their orcs.

Quote:
We don't know what secret affectations and affections Sauron had with his Orcs in hierarchies.
Perhaps not, but I would like to see any reason to think that Morgoth's or Sauron's attitudes toward the orcs were anything other than what I laid out above. And by reason I mean citations from Tolkien's writings, not speculations or personal opinions.

Quote:
were volunteering themselves for a dire, labour or horrific burden, bearing the sacrifice of the Vanity of the Host, by pooling the 'bleeding' energy of Ea into a repetitive Song of Sustain.
That is an interesting theory, but the text lays out Morgoth's motives and they don't support it.
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