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Old 10-10-2004, 04:30 AM   #60
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Let's try to come back into that chapter by answering (and ordering) Man of the World's post. First I would like to comment in short to the observation
Quote:
... I think C Tolkien did a fine job with S`77 in publishing the book that his father might have done and wanted to publish in the mid-1950s (apart from never finished matters like the FoG), and he is too hard on himself.
... In short, I wonder about the point and propriety of the New, Revised Silmarillion.
I agree fully with te first part. But that does not necessarily led to the abandonment of revising we do here. In short, in is Forum a group has formed of members that all like to work out a fuller Silmarillion. The reasons for each member are different but the final goal is similar enough to make us cooperate. The question if the final result is need by anyone does not matter. As long as we like to create it (for what ever reason) we will work on.

Now to the points form Man of the World:

FD-SL-01 / Note 1: So we all agree that Húrin had a band with him. The Naming might be objectively wrong, but the cores of the group were the companions from Hithlum and Tolkien ever called them outlaws. Thus, I think we could use that name for Húrin following still.

FD-SL-03 / Note 2: We could clearly give different accounts of Mîm's death in the way Man of the World suggested it. But if we do that as often as suggested we will break the narrative to peaces. And I don't think it is needed her. Q30 is the last source of the event, and even if the motives of Húrin are changed we can still find good reasons for him not to promote or deal out Mîm's death.

FD-SL-10 / Note 3: The fate of the outlaws is discussed already at length in this thread. And we all seem to agree that they could not overcome (at least not all) the cruse of Mîm. How we can make that clear in our text is the difficult part and can, as I think, only be worked out with the text-editing.

FD-SL-05 / Note 4: I don't see the advantage in the storyline Man of the World suggested. Beside the fact that we have no source for it so that it would be pure fan-fiction, we would also ruin the gesture as in Q30 if Elves of Doriath would carry the treasure into the hall. If we are going to accept that awkwardness than we should use the story of Q30 because it would settle the fate of the outlaws nicely.

FD-SL-7 / Note 5: The healing of Húrin is, in my view, not in line with context of the tragedy call Narn. Beside that I even do not see the ability for Melian to do that. Could she have lifte the cruse than she would have done it earlier with Túrin, Morwen and Nienor who were all for some time under her protection. I think Húrin must depart in bitterness. Thus his free death in the western-sea, reported as a rumour, is much more likely.

FD-SL-10 / Note 6: Yes, such a device might be in order for the later fate of the outlaws, but I don't think it will be told from Húrins point of view.

FD-SL-11 / Note 7: I already gave in concerning this point. But if we come to the text we will discuss if we can use Melains advise to through the treasure into Esgalduin at this point or not, and I think we can not if we have not counterpart for the temptation of Thingol.

FD-SL-12 / Note 8: I think we all agree here with Man of the World.

FD-SL-14 to FD-SL-17 / Note 9: I agree with the statement of Man of the World, but to create a text for it we make this more difficult.

FD-SL-17 to FD-SL-19 / Note 10: Agreed in general, but I don't think the passage in The Hobbit can be read like Man of the World does read it. Even in the later position of Thranduils realm in north Mirkwood all his dwarven neighbours were of Dúrins house (Ered Mithrim, Erebor, Ered Engrin) in the former location in southern Mirkwood they were even nearer to the main city of Dúrins Folk. Thus if the family of Thorin was not involved in that incident than the passage must refer to some other realm.

FD-SL-23 / Note 11: I don't think that the girdle could be overcome by treachery at all, and I think Maedhros and Aiwendil agree with me in this point. What the Warriors of Doriath did protect were parts of Thingols realm not included in the Girdle, like Dimbar were Túrin and Beleg fought. People that were rescued from starving in the decides of the Girdle and let in by Elves like Beleg did with Túrin or like Húrin were, at least, thought of by Melian as being in freindly terms with Thingol. And they all were led in as "guarded guests". Clearly it is possible to tell a fan-fictional story were some Elves of Doriath feign to make the army of Naugladur prisoners and thus gained a passage for, but that would by fare beyond the border of the limits set by our rules. And in addition the Dwarves did not need some Elves to show them the way into Doriath, they had visited it many times before. But still JRR Tolkien wrote concerning the Dwarves: "Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army!"

FD-SL-20 / Note 12: It is nice to have someone on my side concerning the treachery of the Elves of Doriath, even if we do not agree in the way it affected the storyline.

FD-SL-21 / Note 13: What Man of the World did suggest her is not useable for the project as it is again hardly fashionable within the rules of the project.

FD-SL-23 / Note 14: I agree on this point, but Maedhros still has an other view.

FD-SL-23.5 / Note 15: Agreed on the first part, but I don't see why the dwarves would not be able for such violence as the ravening of Menegroth. The pitiless fight of the Dwarves against the Orks in the third age is an example for such violence on the side of the Dwarves.

FD-SL-23 / Note 16: Again I agree to Man of the World here but Maedhros seems to have still some objections.

FD-SL-24 to FD-SL-27 / Note 17: It seems we all agree her.

Originally I would have liked to continue now with the discussion of the points in the storyline were Maedhros, Aiwendil and I disagree. But my time for today is running out and I had not have the time to reread all the posts from #49 onward. Also I was the last to make some comments in post #58 thus I could have added not much (I think). The agruments raised in that post at least still stand unanswered.
If I get some time for it in the near future I will try to work out the basic-text from which to start with addition mention in post #58 (with variants for the points of the storyline were we did not jet find an agreement).

Respectfully
Findegil
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