The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04

Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-26-2005, 09:28 PM

Denethor has always struck me as one of the more 'complete' characters in the stroy, so like Bb and Lal I prefer to take him 'on his own terms' -- or, put another way, I am happier giving him a psychological reading than with just about any other character: there are complexities in him that don't exist in a lot of other characters in the tale.

But at the same time he is still a character in a story and not a real person, so I can only make sense of him in relation to other characters, specifically his sons. Faramir and Boromir are yet another example of an interesting polarisation in characterisation with Boromir providing the vainglory (honour for the self) and Faramir the sacrifice (honour for the city). Denethor seems to be a wonderful mixture of them both: he has been broken by the conflicting demands that are placed upon him as an individual and as a leader of a city: he must protect Minas Tirith until such time as the king returns, but the only way he can do that is by sacrificing himself by looking into the Palantir (and sending out his sons to die) which is also an act of hubris ("I am so great that I can look into the Palantir; I am the greatest man in Minas Tirith, so it's my job to protect it until a better man comes along").

Another pattern I think he fits in, is with Saruman and Gandalf -- three "terrible old men" who know about the Ring, are aware of the full implications of what's going on, and who contend with the Eye directly. Again, Denethor fits nicely in the middle of the two wizards, with Saruman going all the way over to Evil, Gandalf staying with the good, and Denethor doing evil without pledging himself to evil.

That's what I find so compelling about him: he never sides with Sauron (quite the reverse) nor does he ever adopt the techniques and strategies of Sauron; but neither does he follow Faramir, Frodo or Eomer and simply accept Aragorn as the Good (that he is).

He's one of the few instances in the stories which acknowledges that evil happens in many different ways, and that simply destroying the Dark Lord will not be the end of evil; this is why I think, Bb Denethor is being directly compared to that other 'free agent of evil' Shelob in that passage you somewhat coyly cited above. I have already promised at some point a fuller Denethor-Shelob meditation, but again time is against me here...

07-26-2005, 09:28 PM	#35
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Denethor has always struck me as one of the more 'complete' characters in the stroy, so like Bb and Lal I prefer to take him 'on his own terms' -- or, put another way, I am happier giving him a psychological reading than with just about any other character: there are complexities in him that don't exist in a lot of other characters in the tale. But at the same time he is still a character in a story and not a real person, so I can only make sense of him in relation to other characters, specifically his sons. Faramir and Boromir are yet another example of an interesting polarisation in characterisation with Boromir providing the vainglory (honour for the self) and Faramir the sacrifice (honour for the city). Denethor seems to be a wonderful mixture of them both: he has been broken by the conflicting demands that are placed upon him as an individual and as a leader of a city: he must protect Minas Tirith until such time as the king returns, but the only way he can do that is by sacrificing himself by looking into the Palantir (and sending out his sons to die) which is also an act of hubris ("I am so great that I can look into the Palantir; I am the greatest man in Minas Tirith, so it's my job to protect it until a better man comes along"). Another pattern I think he fits in, is with Saruman and Gandalf -- three "terrible old men" who know about the Ring, are aware of the full implications of what's going on, and who contend with the Eye directly. Again, Denethor fits nicely in the middle of the two wizards, with Saruman going all the way over to Evil, Gandalf staying with the good, and Denethor doing evil without pledging himself to evil. That's what I find so compelling about him: he never sides with Sauron (quite the reverse) nor does he ever adopt the techniques and strategies of Sauron; but neither does he follow Faramir, Frodo or Eomer and simply accept Aragorn as the Good (that he is). He's one of the few instances in the stories which acknowledges that evil happens in many different ways, and that simply destroying the Dark Lord will not be the end of evil; this is why I think, Bb Denethor is being directly compared to that other 'free agent of evil' Shelob in that passage you somewhat coyly cited above. I have already promised at some point a fuller Denethor-Shelob meditation, but again time is against me here... __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.