[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Bravo to Mithadan for an interesting topic!

Oliphaunt - I'll get to the White Counsel in a moment.

I agree with Sharku and Mr. Underhill on the extent and flavor of Denethor's pride, to a point.

But the death of Hitler was not tragic. If they were so similar, why do we not cheer when Denethor throws himself on the bier?

What's tragic?

He's faulted. Yet there is a possibility for greatness. He has a keen intelligence, is a great strategist (you can see that in the questioning of Pippin), strong-mindedness, enough to stand up to - well, all the wrong people - and he used the Palantir with more success than Saruman. His intentions were noble, he wished to protect the realm of Gondor, and he was loyal to the end to his role as steward.

In disecting his faults don't ignore his virtues.

Even Dene-tractors can see how valuable an ally he could have been.

Could-have-beens make for tragedy.

In the books you wait and wait for Denethor to open his eyes, thaw out a little, join the rest of the world in its struggle rather than demanding the rest of the world join him.

We see the awakening of Theoden, and it seems possible for Denethor, too. He only lacks hope, trust, and broad vision of a better future. So he takes the course of a bitter pragmatist, rather than throwing himself into the fray.

Yet there's a bright spot, a spark of a chance, when the perky Pippin is brought to him; a possibly Denethor might see a more hopeful, happy world, once he had proof one actually existed in the Shire. Perhaps even having some concern for it for the sake of his young squire, extending his vision of "realm in need of protection" beyond his own borders.

But that faint hope is snatched away, we later learn, because he put his faith in the Palantir. In himself. He never allied himself with the rest of Middle Earth.

In the end he is replaced, but we feel his death keenly, more than a mere politician's, because he clearly could have been so much more.

The White Counsel, Oliphaunt...

I think it would be in character for Denethor to expect to be kept informed of anything that effected his realm and - as demonstrated by his use of the Palantir, Pippin - he wanted to know everything first hand so he could make up his own mind. What went on behind closed doors would have been a source of irritation and out of spite he'd not be inclined to cooperate. His spitefulness was demonstrated in his treatment of Faramir, and attitude towards Gandalf. His actions were just pettiness. A lack of cooperativeness rather than outright opposition. Proof he had no great interest in being part of the council. He was too canny not to rightly assume the White Counsel was more concerned with foreign realms and 'Middle Earth' over 'Gondor', so he wouldn't have been interested, except in those decisions that directly effected his realm. The arrogance (in his eyes) of creating a counsel above his head at all would've ****ed him off.