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davem · 05-05-2004, 10:51 AM

(Bear with me, I'm trying to clarify things for myself as much as add to the debate

)
And yet we are still left with the question, is Tolkien 'using' Faerie for 'ulterior motives'? Or to put it another way, is he using Faerie to 'evangelise'? Is his purpose to get us to see that far off gleam of evangelium. Jung has been accused of putting his own spin on the Alchemical texts he used, in order to confirm his own theories - which was valid, because he was a physician, & was concerned with curing his patients, not an investigator of the history of science.

But was Tolkien an 'evangelist' (or at least an 'apologist' like Lewis), making use of Faery to convert us to his beliefs - he almost goes as far as to say this in regard to LotR, when he said it was 'consciously' revised to make it conform to Catholic teaching - or was he attempting to offer us a glimpse into Faerie?

We have a 'canon' of Faerie literature, myths, legends, fairy stories, folklore. I could cite the Eddas, the Mabinogion, the Kalevala, the Irish legends of Cuchulain & Finn MaCool, the Arthurian cycles, on through Kirk's Secret Commonwealth, & down to collections like Campbell's Popular Tales of the West Highlands & Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica, just to name a few that spring to mind. What they give us is a 'traditional' account of Faerie, which in many ways doesn't correspond to Tolkien's vision. We are left asking what Tolkien's motivation was - to add to that 'canon' or to use it to achieve his own ends

(cue sinister organ music).

My own feeling is that Tolkien is attempting to 'Christianise' the traditions he found, so that his stories would 'reveal' what he felt to be the 'truth'. He is not giving us pure, unalloyed, traditional Faerie, but a version of it, for a specific purpose, for all his protestations of opposition to 'the purposed domination of the author'. One example would be his Elves. In traditional accounts Elves, or Fairies (the Irish Sidhe) do not have 'souls'. Many of the Irish saints who appear in the stories state this clearly. But this is not simply an expression of the Orthodox position. They aren't depicted as having what we could call 'moral' souls. They are fickle, cruel, callous, highly dangerous, & will steal human babies from their cradles. They have to be kept on side by gifts of food, & pacified by being praised - they are called 'Fair Folk' less for their beauty & more to keep in with them. They can, for all Tolkien disliked the idea, appear very small, hiding among flowers, & singing silly songs. They don't have immortal souls, & there are numerous accounts of Fairy funerals. In other accounts they are the souls of the dead, & their land is the land of the Dead. Of course, they could also be incredibly beautifulNone of this is in Tolkien's writings. His Elves are his own creation, not traditional at all. They are a kind of (at least in origin) 'perfect' humanity, what Humanity could, or should be.

So Tolkien is using some aspects of the Tradition, & changing others, & introducing brand new creatures & ideas as well. The question is, what is his motivation? To give us a believable, convincing secondary world, or to present us with a 'parable' aimed at converting 'those with ears to hear'? One thing often lacking in traditional tales of fairies is any moral sense, of good & evil. Yet Tolkien's Faerie is a moral world, & in this he is 'dominating' us, he is telling us that good & evil have always existed among Elves & Dwarves, - maybe among the ones inhisFaerie, yet in Faerie as we have recieved it through traditional accounts, they haven't. These traditional Elves & Dwarves are not 'human', & we can see that through their lack of morality.

So we come back to the question of what Faerie is - some underlying 'state or reality' between this world & ultimate 'truth'? But which Faerie fulfils that role - Tolkien's or Tradition's? If it is Tolkien's then the Legendarium is simply a 'parable', & Tolkien is attempting to dominate us; if Tradition's, then 'truth', of which this Faerie is a 'reflection', is not exactly what a Christian would consider to be 'Heavenly', as there is a definite lack of morality involved!

I suppose this brings earlier statements of mine about the nature of Faerie into question, & I may have to change my spots! Faerie becomes not a coherent 'state' or reality underlying this one, but a source of images, stories, concepts, which an author is free to make use of for whatever purpose he chooses - but if he makes such choices, he is choosing for a reason, & has something to say, a position he wants to put forward, & whether he intends it or not, he is to some extent 'dominating' the reader.

Yet, this doesn't explain the sense of 'recognition' which inspires us - not just in the things of Faerie, but in the sense of 'rightness' & 'wrongness' which permeates Middle Earth, so it seems there is something of an objective nature there which his stories put us in touch with, which makes us feel 'Yes, I knew it was like that!'. So we can say that what Tolkien is giving us is not Traditional Faerie, but it is something like 'Truth' which has not changed.

05-05-2004, 10:51 AM	#232
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	(Bear with me, I'm trying to clarify things for myself as much as add to the debate ) And yet we are still left with the question, is Tolkien 'using' Faerie for 'ulterior motives'? Or to put it another way, is he using Faerie to 'evangelise'? Is his purpose to get us to see that far off gleam of evangelium. Jung has been accused of putting his own spin on the Alchemical texts he used, in order to confirm his own theories - which was valid, because he was a physician, & was concerned with curing his patients, not an investigator of the history of science. But was Tolkien an 'evangelist' (or at least an 'apologist' like Lewis), making use of Faery to convert us to his beliefs - he almost goes as far as to say this in regard to LotR, when he said it was 'consciously' revised to make it conform to Catholic teaching - or was he attempting to offer us a glimpse into Faerie? We have a 'canon' of Faerie literature, myths, legends, fairy stories, folklore. I could cite the Eddas, the Mabinogion, the Kalevala, the Irish legends of Cuchulain & Finn MaCool, the Arthurian cycles, on through Kirk's Secret Commonwealth, & down to collections like Campbell's Popular Tales of the West Highlands & Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica, just to name a few that spring to mind. What they give us is a 'traditional' account of Faerie, which in many ways doesn't correspond to Tolkien's vision. We are left asking what Tolkien's motivation was - to add to that 'canon' or to use it to achieve his own ends (cue sinister organ music). My own feeling is that Tolkien is attempting to 'Christianise' the traditions he found, so that his stories would 'reveal' what he felt to be the 'truth'. He is not giving us pure, unalloyed, traditional Faerie, but a version of it, for a specific purpose, for all his protestations of opposition to 'the purposed domination of the author'. One example would be his Elves. In traditional accounts Elves, or Fairies (the Irish Sidhe) do not have 'souls'. Many of the Irish saints who appear in the stories state this clearly. But this is not simply an expression of the Orthodox position. They aren't depicted as having what we could call 'moral' souls. They are fickle, cruel, callous, highly dangerous, & will steal human babies from their cradles. They have to be kept on side by gifts of food, & pacified by being praised - they are called 'Fair Folk' less for their beauty & more to keep in with them. They can, for all Tolkien disliked the idea, appear very small, hiding among flowers, & singing silly songs. They don't have immortal souls, & there are numerous accounts of Fairy funerals. In other accounts they are the souls of the dead, & their land is the land of the Dead. Of course, they could also be incredibly beautifulNone of this is in Tolkien's writings. His Elves are his own creation, not traditional at all. They are a kind of (at least in origin) 'perfect' humanity, what Humanity could, or should be. So Tolkien is using some aspects of the Tradition, & changing others, & introducing brand new creatures & ideas as well. The question is, what is his motivation? To give us a believable, convincing secondary world, or to present us with a 'parable' aimed at converting 'those with ears to hear'? One thing often lacking in traditional tales of fairies is any moral sense, of good & evil. Yet Tolkien's Faerie is a moral world, & in this he is 'dominating' us, he is telling us that good & evil have always existed among Elves & Dwarves, - maybe among the ones inhisFaerie, yet in Faerie as we have recieved it through traditional accounts, they haven't. These traditional Elves & Dwarves are not 'human', & we can see that through their lack of morality. So we come back to the question of what Faerie is - some underlying 'state or reality' between this world & ultimate 'truth'? But which Faerie fulfils that role - Tolkien's or Tradition's? If it is Tolkien's then the Legendarium is simply a 'parable', & Tolkien is attempting to dominate us; if Tradition's, then 'truth', of which this Faerie is a 'reflection', is not exactly what a Christian would consider to be 'Heavenly', as there is a definite lack of morality involved! I suppose this brings earlier statements of mine about the nature of Faerie into question, & I may have to change my spots! Faerie becomes not a coherent 'state' or reality underlying this one, but a source of images, stories, concepts, which an author is free to make use of for whatever purpose he chooses - but if he makes such choices, he is choosing for a reason, & has something to say, a position he wants to put forward, & whether he intends it or not, he is to some extent 'dominating' the reader. Yet, this doesn't explain the sense of 'recognition' which inspires us - not just in the things of Faerie, but in the sense of 'rightness' & 'wrongness' which permeates Middle Earth, so it seems there is something of an objective nature there which his stories put us in touch with, which makes us feel 'Yes, I knew it was like that!'. So we can say that what Tolkien is giving us is not Traditional Faerie, but it is something like 'Truth' which has not changed. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."