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Old 04-02-2013, 05:57 AM   #125
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
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Reading VT 50 I found that the matter is more complex then expected. The sentence is in Latin script but in an early form of Sindarin language. It reads in the final form (reach by Tolkien with some emendations while writing):
Quote:
Arphent Rían
Tuorna: man agorech?

il chem en i naugrim
en ir Ellath thor
den amen
Tolkien provides neither translation nor context. Which makes the attempts of the editors of VT to translate the sentence more difficult. The full analysis is very interesting but would lead to fare here (in addition to breaking there copy right). They arrive finally at the following possible meanings:
Quote:
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the earth of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hands of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hearts of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the earth of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be silent to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hearts of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be silent to us.
The metaphorical meant is quite clear: Rian is expressing to her infant boy here fear that due to the betrayal men have done during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the dwarves and Elves will in future be opposed to men. Nonetheless the exact translation is very much uncertain as shown above.
In such a case we must step back and look at our rules:
Quote:
4. No new names and no new expressions in Elvish or in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages may be introduced; all names or expressions in J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages that are updated must be changed either in accordance with a universal change by Tolkien or with a logical reason and a sound etymology.
Wouldn't it be violating this rule (at least in spirit) to give a definite translation to a phrase like that discussed here, were the guru's of ELF do not provide such a definite meaning?

The way around this would be giving the phrase in Sindarin and providing a translation in a footnote with some colloquial remark about its uncertainty. But then we have to be sure if this phrase is still valid Sindarin or if it is out dated? I am much to less an expert in Tolkien’s languages to answer that question.
If it is outdated: are we trusting our self to make an appropriate updating with the uncertainty in meaning we have? I don't believe so.

Anyway I am still very much interested to include the sentence if possible. It does transport some very interesting information about men before the Nirnaeth. As much as we are told that the Edain shunned the newly come Easterlings, I for my part believed the Edain thought of the newcomers as part of the hunting parties that had followed them out of the east to drag as many as possible to the scarifies at the temple of Morogth. But if Rian has such feeling of togetherness as to take upon herself and her kind a common blame for the deeds of a part of the Easterlings this does no longer feel true to me.
So if the Sindarin is okay I would propose the following:
Quote:
... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth,FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 /told her what he did know about that battle. So he revealed the treason of the Easterlings. And said Rían to Tuor:/ {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man} ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen.’ [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)]/
And at the end Annael/ said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...
Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: Members who don't have VT 50 should visit the privat forum.

Last edited by Findegil; 04-02-2013 at 06:04 AM.
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