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Old 03-09-2002, 10:20 PM   #65
littlemanpoet
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pipe

Quote:
I haven't looked, but I'd be willing to wager that all of the Maia that are described are described as servants and not creatures. Tolkien was very careful with the use of language, and I doubt it is coincidental that the Maia are referred to as servants and the rest of Melkor's armies as creatures.
This is a false distinction, Thingol.

Quote:
Creature: 1. something created: as a) a lower animal; b) a human being; c) a being of anomalous or uncertain aspect or nature. 2. one who is the servile dependent or tool of another.
As this definition shows, a creature can be either in flesh or not. Therefore, All beings, whether Valar or Children of Iluvatar, are creatures. Note that "servant" is even contained within the definition of "creature".

Despite the fact that spirit and body cannot be teased out from each other, Thingol, I agree that a strong spirit (or will), like that of a Balrog, can only be defeated by a spirit or will of comparable strength. But the strength of the weapon of the opponent should be accounted for, as well. Turin with his Black Sword, for example.

What I was really saying with "teased out" was a caution against talking about the physical and spiritual as if they were two separate battles. I agree that the spirit is in general more important than the flesh, but not exclusively so.

There is another important factor that I don't think has been brought into this discussion, and it needs to be because of Thingol's first two points about the weakness of Men. Iluvatar created the Valar and Eldar to be governed by fate, whereas Men have freedom to change fate, this making them more like Melkor than any of the other Valar in the eyes of the Eldar.

This ability to act free of fate is part of what is going on with Bilbo (who must be accounted as part of humanity) and Bard, slayer of Smaug. Bilbo was called 'lucky', and Bard's slaying of Smaug was also 'lucky'. This basically makes it impossible to compare men to the Eldar or Valar in terms of strength of spirit, because luck cannot be factored into the calculation with any success.

Here's my opinion on the Balrog versus Dragon debate after having read all of this thread so far: Balrogs were Melkor's Maiar and they made their own shapes. Dragons were the shapes that Melkor made for other Maiar who were not as strong as Balrogs. The Balrogs were created by Iluvatar to shape their own forms; the Dragons shapes were created by Melkor, a lesser being than Iluvatar, so the Dragons themselves must be lesser than Balrogs. It's my guess that the Maiar that inhabit Dragons are made more powerful by having been given those powerful forms. But that's only a guess.
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