[Findegil]

RD-EX-51 Are you sure that "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." is what you want? I would at least add a "now" after the "and":

Now one there was{ had been}, Fangluin the aged, RD-EX-51 {who had Counselled them from the first never to return the king's loan, for said he: ‘Ufedhin we may later seek by guile to release, if it seem good,’ but at that time this seemed not policy to Naugladur their lord, who desired not warfare with the Elves. Yet now}and now did {Fangluin}he jeer at them mightily on their return, ...

Posted by Aiwendil:

RD-SL-20

I don't see the need for this deletion. We have changed the story so as to eliminate in actual fact the treachery of the Elves. But this is just a general statement that without the aid of treachery from within, the Girdle cannot be breached.

To which deletion did you reffer here? If it is the first sentence of §33, then this has been deleted because it was replaced by the following expansion RD-EX-54. I did show RD-SL-18, RD-SL-20c, and RD-SL-21a, which are rendered irrelevant in this sentence, because we did agree on them in the storyline discussion, and I wanted this text to show all developments starting from that text. In a more finished version I would deleat the now useless changes.

RD-SL-18:
"them" -> "him": Agreed.
"the Indrafangs" -> "Lord Bodruith his kin" or "Belegost":
I did insert Bodruith here because his name would be lost otherwise. But if the name bears a problem, as you thing it does, than this was a cacophany idea, and we will rather take "Belegost".

RD-EX-55 & RD-EX-56: Agreed.

RD-EX-58:
Without the addition the § would read:

§34 (§18) Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren Thingol was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest. Now Naugladur knew, that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.

Wouldn't that mean that the dwarves assembled at the borders of Doriath when the first sentence is true, thus more than a month before the hunt?

§37a:
"a hunt" -> "the hunt": Agreed.
The addition from TY: I agree that your sentece does read better, beside the fact that we should delet the "and" at the end of the first sentence. But is the lose of "Somehow" wanted? I think we should retain it. It the clearest statment that we do not know, even more that Tolkien did not know. If we skip it it reads as if we do simple not tell, not indicating at all if we know how they did it or not. Thus I suggest:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain.

Posted by Aiwendil:

Thinking about the storyline discussion again, I wonder whether it would be better to attempt an ambiguity as to whether the girdle failed because Melian departed or Melian departed because the Girdle failed. We could add at the end of §37b (§21) a simple statement that Melian departed, and then remove her from the following material (which would necessitate significant curtailment) - that, I think, would achieve such an ambiguity.

I took Q30 as a guideline, there it is said that: "Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she went forth to seek Beren and Luthien."
But that might be wrong in view of TY and the famous note. I have rereade the development from Ab1 through Ab2 and the many stages of TY to the famous note. In other places I have argued that the phrases used do not change and that the lose of some details in TY is thus only caused by compresion. The same seems to be true here but teh note does change this. AB2 is in agrement with Q30:

502 Here the Dwarves came in force from Nogrod and from Belegost and invaded Doriath; and they came within by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the gold. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered; and there hath been war between Elf and Dwarf since that day. But Melian the Queen could not be slain or taken, and she departed to Ossiriand. ...

But already in the first draft of TY called 'A' by Christopher Tolkien, which alone of all these drafts does repreasent the story of Beren regaining the Silmaril from the Dwarves, reads:

502 The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian returns to Valinor. Beren destroys the Dwarf-host at Rath-loriel.

Since Christopher Tolkien writes in the § before "As the manuscript was originally made (in which condition I will distinguish it as 'A') the entries from 500 to the end, very brief, followed the first (pre-Lord of the Rings) version of The Tale of Years (see p. 342) closely: my father clearly had that in front of him, and did no more than make a fair copy with fuller entries, introducing virtually no new matter or dates not found in AB 2 (V.141 - 4)." Thus we could still argue that the absent of Melian from the fight in Doriath could still be caused by the further compression of the story from AB2 to TY, but we are not sure. It would again be intersting to read the version of 'TY' that was accomping AB2. I think that Melain was still seen as beeing in Menegroth when it was taken, because of TY 'C'. But first let's have TY 'B':

503 Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian takes Nauglamir to Beren and Luthien and then returns to Valinor. ...

This is again to short to be sure of the detailed chronology of Melians movment, but TY 'C' reads:

503 The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. Thingol is slain, and his realm ended. The Dwarves carry off the Dragon-gold, but Melian escaped and carried off the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brought it to Beren and Luthien. Then she returned to Valinor; but Luthien wore the Silmaril. ...

"But Melian escaped" is for me still an indication that she did witness the sake of Menegroth. TY 'D' reads nearly exactly like 'C' and I will not give it here. What then follows is only the note:

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text. Thus it seems I was again blinded by the desire for textual details.

I will still go one with the comments to Aiwendils points since not all will be lost by the earlier depature of Melian.

RD-EX-60:
If we write "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company,. ..." we would jump back in the timeline without a clear indication. I think we need at least "Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, ..."

"... {there is a rat that gnaws}the threads [are riven] ...": Agreed.

RD-EX-61:
The long addition from Sil77 has no direct source as fare as I know. If you think we should not use it then we will skip it. For the new versin of it see further down.

RD-EX-62:
We have no other source for a the invasion into Doriath of the dwarves after the death of Thingol, beside the pure statment in the note. Thus I think the additon from Sil77 is needed her. And as fare as I have understood the old discussion between you and Lindil such addition are allowed in such circumstances.

RD-EX-63:
Sorry, I can't see your point here. The "cry" that grew to "a firece noise by the clash of steel" did not strike me as grammaticaly bad, other than that a cry does not grew by additional noises. But any way you are more likely to know your gramma then I am. so if you want a change we will make one, but the change of "by" -> "of" is very awakward, in my view by the duplication of "of" in such a short distance.

§40b:

‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire.

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

About the names:
Naugladur: Can it not be meant as: "Obsessed (devoted) servant of the Dwarvish interrests". Such a meaning would very well fit the role he plays in RoD.
Bodruith: His name is not part of text as edited by us, if we do not insert him. So I think it would be better to skip him then to update the name.
Nielthi: Don't spent to much time on her name. It isn't a problem to skip the name but retain the role she plays anonymus.

What follows is the text for the story of Melian departing imidiatly after Thingols death:

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word >RD-EX-61b <Sil77 {But now} Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.>

§38 (§22) <HoME11; The Tale of The Years Then Melian {departs}departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.> {, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered;} RD-EX-62b <Sil77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5 Then {went Gwendelin unafraid forth from her bower, and behold,} a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.>

§39 (§23) RD-EX-64b <TN Then {did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten }those few guards that remained{ to her} and had fared not to the hunt{, and} valiantly{ they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.>

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long fled and when then pursuer> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>. And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian RD-EX-65.4{ the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.} RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

This will have some follow-up changes in the next part. When we close the discussion on this point I will bring forth post with the changes in that thread.

Respectfully
Findegil