[aragornreborn]

Phew, I'm back.

Clearly, personal beliefs add (often immense) value to the discussions, but let's remember that we are discussing a work of fiction.

I know. I’m flirting with getting off topic. But, in my opinion, there isn’t a whole lot of information about Eru in Tolien’s works so I’m delving into what perhaps Tolkien meant for Eru to be because of his Catholic beliefs. If we’re going to go solely on what was written, it might be harder to discuss. But perhaps that was Tolkien’s purpose. I know he didn’t like allegory. And maybe he didn’t want his Eru to resemble a particular god aside from vague similarities. Sorry, I’m thinking aloud. OK, on further reflection, I realize I have been delving into Tolkien’s beliefs more than his writings which is wrong. So, from henceforth I will speak of what is written about ME concerning this thread.

(I must warn you that I minored in Theological Studies so if you ask for it, you'll get it with both barrels!).

Well, I’m quite simple, so I wouldn’t mind if we kept this to mere mortal standards. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Doesn't perfection imply kindness and mercy as well as omniscience? If Eru created a being who had so little will to resist the Ring, how could he possibly punish that being for succumbing to the very weakness he created in it? ... Not to mention, of course, that every bit of this totally negates the concept of free will.

When Eru’s creations were bestowed with free will, they now had the responsibility to obey Eru (i.e. do good). If they did not have free will, Eru would have simply made them obey. But, since Eru has given them free will, he expects them to obey, anyway. I think it’s an equal trade-off. They have freedom but also responsibility. So, they are expected to be loyal to Eru, but are given the choice of whether to follow through with that expectation or not. If they decide to rebel, that is a conscious, deliberate decision. In Middle Earth, evil does not have control over anyone unless they allow it to control them. Gollum never HAD to kill Deagol and take the Ring. He could have said, “Hey, cool Ring!” and left it at that. But, he made a deliberate and conscious decision to take that Ring for himself. The very definition of free will is to be able to make your own decisions, so I think the argument that some creatures were too weak-willed to abstain from evil is not true. If they have free will from Eru (in a sense), than they also have free will from evil. Also, to respond to something you said earlier, perfection demands justice over kindness and mercy.

I do not agree with you, aragornreborn, that they are punished by Eru for giving into evil, but I do agree that they had a choice not to give into it and ended up making the wrong choice. They therefore suffer the inevitable consequences of that failure.

Well, the Valar who are under Eru’s control and most likely in this respect his direct orders will throw Melkor into the eternal abyss or whatever it is that’s awaiting him. So, I think that Eru does punish his creations for doing evil. He may use other instruments to inflict that punishment (i.e. the Valar, a man, a guilty conscience, or slippery stones!). Evil is clearly not condoned in Middle Earth, and in order for Eru to be just, he must punish evildoers.

This brings me back to my intial view that, having created beings with free will, it was up to those beings to determine the fate of Arda. In that sense, it might be said that Eru has no opponents because he is not "playing the game". He set it in motion, but then stood back and let the beings he created battle it out.

I like to compare Eru with a father (which he is). As a father, you want to give your children freedom so they can grow. But, you also know what’s good for them. If they are doing things that are wrong or harmful, you want and should intervene because you care for them and care for what is right. When Eru gave his creations free will, he wanted them to still adhere to his principles which are inherently good because of his perfection. Thus, because he is a god who cares for his creations and is just, he must demand that they obey. He wants to give them as much freedom as possible, but if they abuse that freedom, he may intervene either personally or through his messengers.

My this has turned out to be an interesting expedition. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]