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Seeker of the Straight Path
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Re: Principles of editing the Silmarillion
Jallanite's revision of Pengoldh's principles : [w/ Pengolodh's suggestion of combining 2 and 3.
What constitutes Canon:
There are four levels:
*****1. What was published or openly distributed by J.R.R.
Tolkien during his lifetime. (I use the term openly
distributed to cover the "Guide to the Names in the Lord
of the Rings" distributed to translators but only
published after his death in Jared Lobdell's A Tolkien
Compass.) Material in later published editions takes
precidence over material in earlier editions except where
it can be demonstrated to be in error.
*****2./3. Material written privately but distributed during
Tolkien's lifetime. (I am really talking about the material
in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. This is also material he
knowingly released.)
***** Material by Tolkien published after Tolkien's death.
************a). Documents edited as far as possible exactly
as Tolkien left them.
************b). Documents edited with some cleanup by
another (e.g. Christopher Tolkien).
************Material of class 3b takes precedence over
material of class 3a when it is demonstratably later.
from alater post{{since the exact date of a letter is usually
mentioned, it is easy to compare it with the date of the
manuscript. Then decide which one is the later writing
and then also review if it doesn't present serious
problems with "the Rest" of the tale. }}
*****4. Editorial reworking by or under the direction of
Christopher Tolkien.
jallanite posted <blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Material in a lower level that specifically corrects material
in a higher level may take precedence over the higher
level. I mean things like the accounts of the hair-color of
the Eldar published after Tolkien's death which make it
clear that the statement in Appendix F is in error, the
more complete list of the Kings of Númenor published in
Unfinished Tales, the more complete genealogy of the
White Tree of Gondor, and other matters of that kind.
This material should only take priority when it is
obviously a correction of, or superior original to, or
conscious alteration of higher-level material. The change
of Orc to Ork might be such a change. If a letter from
J.R.R. Tolkien surfaced that stated that Celebrimbor's
Fëanorian descent in The Lord of the Rings was an error
to be removed, that would take priority. <hr></blockquote>
Lindil: there is a major issue here. If we adopt changes , such as the hair color [hypotheticallly] which JRRT stated he wanted changed, but is
not yet corrected in the LotR, then what is published [the last edition] is no longer canon. We have lost homogenity w/ the current canon - on a good principle ,but lost it none the less I think [ork is an exceptional l example,since I think JRRT said something re: wanting it used specifically for the Silm. ]
I suppose there are not many points like this but if a 'celebrimbor must be a gondolindhrim- change this in the LotR app.' letter surfaced - I would be inclined to wait to use it as canon until the estate/CRT revised the LotR.
Otherwise we have a canon that is more 'correct' than the published canon - feels odd to me.
re: #4 - this would mean that CRT's Ruin of Doriath would stand over the [what I see as hopelessly obsolete] II/IV versons of Doriath ? using the princple of "Material in a lower level that specifically corrects material in a higher level may take precedence over the higher level.
After a fair bit of soul-searching and 'facing reality ' awile back - I came to the opinion of using CRT's editorial changes and creations where nothing of JRRT's would do 1/2 as well is an contradictory [to the whole goal of a new Silm canon] accomadation -but -the best one available, in that, JRRT specifically left the Silm for him to deal w/ and left him nothing usable for Ruin of Doriath sort of like Frodo fixing up Bilbo's work, to use a close to home analogy.
I am listing Jallinite's later note as it's own point here as it seems to be a principle in and of itself, although not a 'level of Canon' .
5. J: I would suggest also that aesthetics be allowed as abasis for decision, but at the very lowest level. (It obviously will be anyway, so recognize it accordingly. We would not be doing this if not for aesthetics.)
Lindil:I agree it should be a low-level principle, but one none the less.. I think it is important to realize that by tinkering w/ this at all we are trying to improve on what exists in 77/01.I have characterized the situation as "trying to emulate what JRRT might do if he were stuck on a desert isle w/ HoME, UT, 77/01 and no pen and paper just scissors and tape" [he would have to update the names later] .
It is mainly a principle I would reserve for the blatantly incongrous LT material , on the grounds that JRRT himself was merciless at changing names that 'didn't work'. It is my understanding that beauty of the words increased even as the clarity and beauty of the writing increased, so to leave in a Rog [as a blatant example currently underquestion] just doesn't work - as CRT saw.
This principle will of course have to be applied [if it gets a unanimous/majority approval] cautiously and reviewed/voted on in each case I would imagine.
~~~pt 2~~~
#1
Working Procedures
1[jallanite suggested] Should there be a set of notes justifiying each manuscript decision as part of the project? I think so.
lindil: agrees-
on a related note I proposed and then backtracked on a bracketing system [for documentation not a final 'read at home'/'published by the estate' <img src=smile.gif ALT="
"> version. That would clearly show where each line or word [except name updates] came from. here is a brief example:
[II]
<V>
{X}
{Turgon foolishly decided} <to ignore the words of Ulmo> [thus dooming nearly all the men women and children of Gondolin to death,rape and torment] -
It looks unweildy in a sentence where there are 3 or four changes but this would be rather rare I think. Italics/bold /underlining could also be used although this would be very hard to read .
perhaps better would be an * and footnote system or margin notes - this all refers to sources used - documenting the reason a section was changed from the base text would still be a seperate document. we could simply use the threads we are currently generating [w/ a bit of editing maybe - thinking of Aragorn's anscestors and theearly part of the Kings of the Noldor threads]
as an aside - even if the Estate rejects using our new Silm I wonder if the editing discussions could legitimately be posted / sold ? Not a pressing point at the moment.
#2
jallanite posted:
On point 4, it may occasionally be necessary to change
things like singular verbs to plural or the reverse, add
words like "there", and do other very minor cleanup. This
might come under style, but I think as cases arise where
this seems necessary, allowable templates might be
included in the principles at this place.
I would be inclined for our pilot project to attempt [at least initially] to not go that far w/ editing , for maximum credibility. I say we reserve this degree of editing to a larger council , if they agree it is truly necesarry to produce a significantly better edition. If in the course of our FoG we discover that we are really losing something, then i would be willing to reconsider, but I am for going at it w/ the idea of JRRT's [and the 77/01] only.
#3 J:This also requires further standards on citation of the works. Page numbers won't do. They vary too widely from edition to edition.
Lindil:Even in X-XII where there is only HB?
Does anyone have the british HoME X-XII so we can compare?
An option [and I already began this w/ my II FoG ] is to number each paragraph in any given chapter/appendix, a fair bit of tedious work, I am def. open to a better way.
------------- misc. points----------
Pengoldh posted:
Lindil, or anyone else, might it be a good idea to add an appendix or Myths Transformed , specifically indicated as the Profs latest musings/writings? We've acknowledged that it cannot be reconciled with the rest, but it does have considerable worth... Perhaps in vol. III , along
with Laws and Customs, Quendi and Eldar etc.?
Vol.III would cert. be the place for it - but I think better [for someone/s] to do an entire Myth's Transformed Silmarillion than to start including the endless possible variants [of which MT along w/ the later Galadriel/Celeborn versions are by far the most comprehensive]
I think it would simply take away from the unity we are tring to form w/ the LotR.
more thoughts ?
lindil
Lindil is oft found on posting on
the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's
http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth
" Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p>