I agree that Rog and stylistic editing are not identical, and I really know of no other Rog-like problems on the horizon. CRT seems also to treat him as an isolated case. JRRT of course rewrote and re-edited almost evrything else we are considering many times so we will probably not have to reach back to BoLT for more details and thus encounter not just old and outdated concepts but outdated elvish names as well.
but I can not see Rog as an entirely canonical problem the problem is not wether he existed or not or wether he may have killed a balrog or not [ he did in Q 30 apparently] but wether his
name nis aestheticaqlly suitable within the Silmarillion CRT felt it could not go in his and I also feel it cannot go in ours, based on euphony not canon. I see no way to address this in any way but head on. His name may not 'contradict' Sindarin as we have it in terms of meanings and such but it is
nails on cahalkboard euphonically. It would be the only Elf name in the entire revised corpus that did not sound like and Elf's name but an Orc's.
Re: The dragons [mechanical ones] we don't know what JRRT would have done really because all further versions of the fall of Gondolin are compressions that only refer to a 'tale of the fall of Gondolin' CRT says in vol 4 [p194 hb ]that
Quote:
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In the reference [ 'devising' rather than 'breeding'] of new dragons by Morgoth for the assault on the city there is even a suggestion of the (apparently) inanimate constructions of the Tale (see II. 2130
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So I do not see the later evidence going particularly either way, not that it really makes much difference.
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We have to as a group decide what kind of New Silmarillion we want.
A new version
Translations from the Elvish has been my suggested working title, which incorporates the historical Quenta and scavenges darn near anything it can find from BoLT to Letters to UT to HoME to create a super Silmarillion complete with as much imitation of Tolkien's style as we can muster for the times we use old source materials or;
A canon of idea's and events that leaves the texts pretty much exactly as it found them after they have been grafted into the tale in question.
Of course I leave it to Aiwendil to formulate his vision here better than myself.
I would suggest that as we have followed Aiwendil's course so far as the basis for a possible literary revision that we go ahead and plan for 2 versions. One version as we are doing, with no revision of the BoLT language other than the minimum to fit it in with the text and then as each section or the whole is complete we move onto the literary polish phase undertaken by those who wish to see it done, and those who do not can begin work on the next section or text.
Once we have a base text we can do a number of things with it, so there is no reason I am aware of for abandoning our current method of establishing the base text or rough draft first. It is just a question of who wants to stop there.
In all reality, I am growing fonder of the idea of this possibly becoming a huge 3 volume affair that is the last word canonically on the pre-LotR era of M-E, or at least treating as if it could be.
If CRT is alive when we finish [and if I was him I would not want to have to bet on it!] then we submit it to him, maybe a partial submision sooner] if not we submit it to the Estate, garnering as much goodwill reviews from important Tolkien society members as we can as we get [and indeed that should be our method either way]. This is all far in the future but if we are going to make a decesion [ and I think we need to ] about the shape and style of our Silmarillion/TftE then the ramifications and possibilities of what we are voting on should be laid out.
One reason I go for the above is that it is not just highly readable [ in theory] but publishable as well [ also in theory]. The
Canon of Ideas and Events version would not really be something to publish as far as I can see. Though it would arguably make for interesting online reading.
As I have said before I would love to have a version that at the very least I could have printed for myself and read to my girls [or their kids more likely at this rate], so I would like something as polished as the current Silm.
As for the current principles discussion Aiwendil favors it seems treating Rog as a one off or more specifically under current guidelines. I don't really care how he goes as long as he goes [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].
No really, I favor there being an aesthetic principle for rare textual occasions such as this, but also it's intent if not wording should be similar or identical for stylistic revisions. I suppose I need to get to work on an alternate principle #7 recommendation for that which we has been recoomended above.
Keep in mind folks we used principles 1-6 without ever really ratifying them. 7 was always lingering as a bone of contention in the background that had till Rog always been sidestepped.
So in summary I propose votes on the following things [ assuming no more options are added and the may well be]:
- a 7th editing principle
- 2 versions of the TftE - 1] a 'canon of ideas and events or a rough draft if you wil, and 2] a polished TftE
- A vote on when to begin polishing, after each section [some can do polish work while others do rough work for the next part/project] or we wait till the end of each sub project to polish [ such as the FoG] or we wait till the end of the entire TftE to polish.
In regards to the last item Aiwendil
seems to favor waiting till the end of all Silmarillion work. I find that untenable and agonizing, and am somwhere between each section and each project. I could be happy [ I think] either way.
Hopefully that all makes sense, and I did not misrepresent A's view's.
other thoughts please?!
[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]