RD-EX-51:
If you say the sentence is grammatically okay I can accept that with some reluctance. In that case every thing we would do seems to be an stylistic change. But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and
he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..."
For me that sounds much more natural.
RD-SL-20:
I have accepted that we do not use any treason by elves from Doriath, but with this phrase we would turn the story to its head. Do you agree with me, that based on the sources we have JRR Tolkien denied the possibility that treason would overcome the girdle?
Now what you suggest, would mean that the Dwarves did see a chance to over come the girdle of Melian if they could have found a traitor from Doriath. This believe of the Dwarves would not be gainsaid in our text at all. The simplest interpretation of such an text would be, that the Dwarves did not find a traitor. This would deny even the possibility of treason among the Sindar as the story goes.
In my view that would makes the story to explicit.
RD-EX-58:
Posted by Aiwendil:
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It seems to me that the account is sufficiently compressed here that no precise chronology is implicated by our revision.
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Okay, if it doesn't create that picture in your mind the addition might be overdone. We will skip it.
§37a:
Posted by Aiwendil:
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Well, "somehow" is the crux of the awkwardness, I think. We can either delete it to obtain something like good prose or retain it for the sake of ambiguity and accept that it reads poorly.
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I feared it was like this. I don't see that the deletion of "somehow" is a prohibited stylistic change. We are dealing with a note that as it is, as your rightly observed, was never meant to form a part of any narrative. Thus if it would by a change not concealing some of the meaning of the note I would accept the deletion of somehow.
Tolkien surely would not have used the words as they stand now, but it is more than likely that he would have device the way by which the dwarves managed to lure Thingol outside the girdle, if ever he had written the story. But we are not Tolkien and we will not device that way. Thus, as it is, we are left only with the statement that nobody (not even Tolkien, who without any doubt had the greatest knowledge of all about Middle-Earth) did know the "how". I think that we should make that clear, and in my view the least we should do, is stick to that "somehow". If you find that better we could expand it like this:
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§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms.{ and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}/No tale tells how they/ contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders{ and is there slain by the Dwarves.}>, RD-SL-22 <TNbut there the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. ...
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Concerning Melians departure:
Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end.
RD-EX-60:
I at least feel a strong desire to introduce that "when".
RD-EX-63:
Okay, you took a different view to the sentence. Now at long last, I see your problem. I the problem I have is that with your options the growing cry becomes more strange to me. What if we try to find a word to fit the lacunae? I suggest: "But the Dwarves held on their way, and >
RD-EX-63 <
TN there was a cry about the doors <
editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise {...}
enforced by the clash of steel."
§40:
Good arguments. I agree, that in view of them we should skip the Orcs. Thus we will get:
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... Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and{ whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet} the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’
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About the names:
Naugladur: That's nice.
Nielthi: Do we need an etymology for each and every name we want to hold?
Bodruith: Agreed he is skipped out of our version.
Respectfully
Findegil