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Galadriel55 · 03-01-2011, 08:23 AM

First of all, I don't understand how the presense or absence of a god makes something (im)moral.

You say that Eru doesn't have one of the qualities you mentioned, because he didn't help Turin. But I think he does. He doesn't point his kids to the right path, but gives them a choice. (And that means more responsibility, in my opinion).

1. Eru knows what is hapening everywhere. You can say that he's literally everywhere, because all the substance of Arda came from him, and is kind of a part of him.

2. He created the world and gave it to his children to play with. He doesn't have to play with them to be a loving daddy (ie god). After he gave them the toy, he doesn't interfere in their game (well, yeah, once - he punished the naughty Numenorians). The children quarrel, make up, fight again, but that's how they learn! It's not like Eru doesn't cera about his children, he just doesn't interrupt their game: it's up to them to sort it out.

3. Remember the words said in the beginning of The Sil about how "bad things" make "good things" even more beautiful? That should answer some questions.

4. Eru doesn't tell his children how to play. That is their choice. He can always stop the game, but he doesn't.

5. I'd say that Eru also loves Melkor. However naughty that child is, he is still his child. So is Sauron. That doesn't mean that Eru approves of what they do.

(These points aren't in the same order as yours. And yes, I consider ainur to be children as well - in a way, they are the 'big ones'.

)

You also say that Eru is unlike the God that Catholics believe in. Why? Because he allowed war, tragedy, loss, etc to happen? The "Christian God" allowed JRRT to fight in WW1, so why can't Eru allow wars to happen his world?

Moreover, it's wrong to say that Turin is totally on his own. Melian guided him, but he didn't listen. She was his Gandalf. Frodo could always say no to Gandalf. Bilbo did. Gandalf in a way enforced the choice on whoever it was. Melian left Turin free to choose, and didn't hinder him when he chose what she thought was wrong. That is the only difference.

PS: it seems to me that 'fate' in COH is not the same as 'Eru made it so'. You choose your own fate, even though it is already there. Eru knows about it, but he doesn't make it. You make it. The same is with LOTR!

EDIT: x'd with Zil. What he said make total sense (and I've repeated some of it

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03-01-2011, 08:23 AM	#21
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,308	First of all, I don't understand how the presense or absence of a god makes something (im)moral. You say that Eru doesn't have one of the qualities you mentioned, because he didn't help Turin. But I think he does. He doesn't point his kids to the right path, but gives them a choice. (And that means more responsibility, in my opinion). 1. Eru knows what is hapening everywhere. You can say that he's literally everywhere, because all the substance of Arda came from him, and is kind of a part of him. 2. He created the world and gave it to his children to play with. He doesn't have to play with them to be a loving daddy (ie god). After he gave them the toy, he doesn't interfere in their game (well, yeah, once - he punished the naughty Numenorians). The children quarrel, make up, fight again, but that's how they learn! It's not like Eru doesn't cera about his children, he just doesn't interrupt their game: it's up to them to sort it out. 3. Remember the words said in the beginning of The Sil about how "bad things" make "good things" even more beautiful? That should answer some questions. 4. Eru doesn't tell his children how to play. That is their choice. He can always stop the game, but he doesn't. 5. I'd say that Eru also loves Melkor. However naughty that child is, he is still his child. So is Sauron. That doesn't mean that Eru approves of what they do. (These points aren't in the same order as yours. And yes, I consider ainur to be children as well - in a way, they are the 'big ones'.) You also say that Eru is unlike the God that Catholics believe in. Why? Because he allowed war, tragedy, loss, etc to happen? The "Christian God" allowed JRRT to fight in WW1, so why can't Eru allow wars to happen his world? Moreover, it's wrong to say that Turin is totally on his own. Melian guided him, but he didn't listen. She was his Gandalf. Frodo could always say no to Gandalf. Bilbo did. Gandalf in a way enforced the choice on whoever it was. Melian left Turin free to choose, and didn't hinder him when he chose what she thought was wrong. That is the only difference. PS: it seems to me that 'fate' in COH is not the same as 'Eru made it so'. You choose your own fate, even though it is already there. Eru knows about it, but he doesn't make it. You make it. The same is with LOTR! EDIT: x'd with Zil. What he said make total sense (and I've repeated some of it ) __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 03-01-2011 at 09:22 AM.