[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The most relevant passage about Sauron's attitude to Morgoth after the First Age is to be found in Morgoth's Ring:

This has always suggested to me that Sauron advocated Melkor-worship in Númenor out of opportunism and pragmatism, not genuine belief. As a hostage and prisoner in Númenor it would have been very unlikely that he could have put forward himself as their new religious figure and be successful, but he can put forward someone else, one about whom the Eldar had perhaps rarely spoken, and perhaps therefore appeared to be "forbidden" (and thus appealing) in the lore of Númenor which, by then, had been estranged from the Eldar and Valar for some time.

I do not think that being a Cynical Opportunist and a True Believer are necessarily exclusive qualities.

It was the very passage you quoted that led me to think that Sauron would not surrender his loyalties to Morgoth so easily.

But that is really tangential to my main point regarding the One Ring and the Balrog. I will return to that later.

My point with Sauron is that his motivations were different than the Balrogs, as well as he was still the Balrog's "Boss" as it were.

I do admit that Sauron's depictions, and motivations, goals, desires seem to have shifted, and developed as Tolkien conceived Middle-earth.

But the ONE THING that informs all of my suspicions about Middle-earth involves a Unifying Metaphysics and thus Physics (How things "work"). As this was said by CJRT to be what caused JRR Tolkien to fail at completing The Silmarillion, and the earlier myths.

From The History of Middle-earth, Vol. X: Morgoth's Ring, pp. x - xi:

Meditating long on the world that he had brought into being and was now in part unveiled, he had become absorbed in analytic speculation concerning its underlying postulates. before he could prepare a final and new Silmarillion he must satisfy the requirements of a coherent theological and metaphysical system, rendered now more complex in its presentation by the supposition of obscure and conflicting elements in its roots and its tradition.

And the issue of the One Ring is something that would need to be more adequately defined under such a system before we could know whether it would indeed have the same effects upon the Balrog that it had for others.

Note that not all Maia sought to possess the Ring, as they understood the dangers involved. And this might well apply to a creature who was Evil, recognizing that the One Ring might not help said creature as much in its own possession

As for other places, it seems as if Sauron tended to be worshipped as a god himself. Professor Tolkien observes in Letter 131 that Sauron's empire, even in the Second Age (before he went to Númenor in fact), was an "evil theocracy (for Sauron is also the god of his slaves)". He also appears, according to The Lord of the Rings, to have been worshipped by the Black Númenóreans in some parts and/or at some, possibly later, times: "they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge."

We also know, however, that "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." (Letter 183) This suggests to me the possibility that Sauron exploited Men's uncertainty about who or what their dark god actually was in order to conflate himself with that person; it seems possible to me that some Men at least did not know that there was any difference between Morgoth and Sauron. Sauron, however, "demanded divine honour from all rational creatures", which suggests to me that he ultimately wished for himself, not Morgoth, to be worshipped as a god, and that he only used Morgoth's legacy when it enabled his own power to do so. According to Morgoth's Ring, he may actually have seen Morgoth as a failure after the First Age, not an object of worthy veneration:
"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more."

I should point out, however, that this is something of a later character development. In the original Númenor story composed in the early 1930s, at the time of The Lost Road and before any other aspects of the history of the Second Age were invented (and before the Third Age was invented at all), Sauron did not have this personal agenda; he's actually more like a puppet of Morgoth's will, or at least receiving instructions from Morgoth from afar. In this period Sauron appears to have been conceived of more as Morgoth's representative; in the later developments of the narrative Morgoth no longer seems to have much capacity, if any, to instruct or communicate with his former servants from the Void, and Sauron takes on the role of a replacement with his own, separate ambitions.

As for the Balrog, I don't recall any material in The Treason of Isengard or elsewhere which speculates too heavily on the nature of the Balrog, although I think there is speculation, abandoned in later re-drafting, that it might have served Sauron. I'll have to check later. Just wanted to get the "How sincerely did Sauron worship Morgoth?" discussion out while it was fresh in my mind.

(Grrrrr..... Had an entire paragraph eaten by my cat...)

The issue of how Faithful Sauron is is secondary to how faithful the Balrogs remained, or at least that was my intention.

From Morgoth's Ring, p. 165:

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendor in the days of his greatness, and remained in allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukir, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called Balrogs, demons of terror.

The Actual text of LQ 2 my father amended at this time very hastily to read:

These were the (ëaler) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendor, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days. . . .

This is from work Tolkien created regarding the Earlier Days of Middle-earth after his completion of The Lord of the Rings but prior to its publication.

And it seems to indicate that the Balrogs would have remained very faithful to Morgoth. My personal take on this is that this means they would have remained faithful to the AUTHORITY of Morgoth as well, and Morgoth appointed Sauron as his chief Lieutenant.

We do have Archetypes and Myths for demons who betray such authority and loyalty to Evil; as many as those who retain loyalty and authority to Evil.

But given the Balrogs representation as following the Will of Morgoth almost robotically, I would think that they would seek to Surrender the One Ring back to Sauron, and then act as if Sauron was the Earthly Proxy of Morgoth, as indeed you suggest he is.

And... I do not think that the One Ring would have the same kind of effect upon the Balrogs as they had upon Mortals, or upon those who Lust for Power.

The Balrogs are not an Archetype of Lust, nor of Power. They are an Archetype of Violence, Fear, and Terror. They are an Archetype of a Display of Power, much like a terrible or horrific weapon, which has little Will of its own, but rather takes its will from the designated Authority.

Notice that in all the Thousands of Years the Balrog sat beneath the Three Peaks of Moria that it not once acted to establish any sort of dominion. It merely reacted when it was threatened, or encroached upon.

So... Maybe it would have taken the One Ring had it fallen into the Balrog's lap, and then just sat in Moria until Sauron came along to ask for his Ring back?

As I have rambled enough here.... My point, overall is that the Balrog cannot be expected to behave like Mortals, or like other Maiar who retain their intact Will (Capital-W). And thus outside of an operationalized definition of the Properties of the One Ring it is very difficult to know how it would react.

I have simply spelled out my own suspicions, and what evidence I believe supports them; right-or-wrong.

MB