View Single Post
Old 02-01-2019, 08:59 AM   #8
gandalf85
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
gandalf85 has just left Hobbiton.
I agree with Fin's comments that you did an excellent and admirable job editing this chapter, Arcus! I will include my comments on "The Hunt for the Ring" and "The Ring Sets Out" which was moved to the end of this chapter.

1) A specific comment followed by a more general concern. I have bolded the section I wish to discuss:

Quote:
For too great was the evil power of this thing for any of the Wise to wield, unless like Curunír he wished himself to become a tyrant and a dark lord in his turn...
I agree with Fin in the "Hunt for the Ring" thread that we can probably assume readers of our text are familiar with LotR, but I think directly alluding to a very specific event which will happen later in our text makes it feel disjointed. In this case the betrayal by Curunir happens in the next paragraph, so I think we should remove "like Curunir" here and I think in general we should try to limit direct references of something which occurs later in our text.

2) I cannot find the edit HR-SL-01.6 in this thread or the "Hunt for the Ring" thread. I think it is a good addition, but we should remove the editorial comment "earlier in this version". Also, there is a detail about the fate of the Stoors in Note 9 of the UT chapter "The Hunt for the Ring" which came from Letter 214. I think it fits well after HR-SL-0.16:

Quote:
RSO-SL-03 {[Footnote: It is later revealed that this is}This was owing to the treason of Saruman, chief wizard, who {attempts}attempted to imprison Gandalf and force him to join the Enemy party. {], and Frodo and his hobbit-servant Sam and two younger kinsmen {go}went off alone into the wild - in the nick of time, just as the Black Riders of Mordor (the Nine Ring-slaves in disguise) {reach}reached the Shire.}> HR-SL-01.6 <HR {Earlier in this version i}It is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.>
HR-SL-01.7 <Letter 214 Between 2463 {[when Déagol the Stoor found the One Ring, according to the Tale of Years]} and the beginning of Gandalf’s special enquiries concerning the Ring (nearly 500 years later) {they [}the Stoors{]} appear {indeed} to have died out altogether (except, of course, for Sméagol); or to have fled from the shadow of Dol Guldur.>
3) I think we should restructure the beginning of "The Journey of the Black Riders". It would make the text smoother if everything related to Gollum's capture by Sauron is collected together and presented before Gollum's capture by Aragorn:

Quote:
HR-SL-02 <HR Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken to Barad-dûr, and there questioned and tormented. HR-SL-03 <HR text D Gollum would not know the term ‘Hobbit,’...From all the accounts it is clear that Gollum did at least know in which direction the Shire lay{; but though no doubt more could have been wrung from him by torture...in the same region as Gollum himself had once lived}. HR-SL-03.1 <Moved from below But {F}from Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account...the land of the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.>
HR-SL-03.2 <Moved from below Now Sauron had never paid heed to the ‘Halflings,'...But for it, the Black Riders would have reached the Shire weeks sooner.>
When he had learned what he could from {him}Gollum, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. ...Sauron hoped that his spies would thus be led to the Ring. HR-SL-04 <HR text D {[}After his release from Mordor{]} Gollum soon disappeared into the Dead Marshes, where Sauron's emissaries could not or would not follow him.>
Gollum, however, was before long captured by Aragorn, and taken to Northern Mirkwood; and though he was followed, he could not be rescued before he was in safe keeping. {Now Sauron had never paid heed to the ‘Halflings,’ even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain...believed that the land the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.}
Now Sauron learning of the capture of Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear...
After re-organizing this, it seems that there is a contradiction. The two accounts are: (in Text A) Sauron assumes Baggins is in the Vales of Anduin or (in Text D) Gollum tells Saruon Baggins is in the Vales of Anduin. It is unclear from Unfinished Tales which is the later form of the story, I think we have to pick one (unless someone can find other evidence related to which version Tolkien ultimately decided on.

4)
Quote:
[Footnote: At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn.]>
This footnote explains what is directly included in the text as RSO-SL-20. I propose we remove this footnote.

5) We never mention that Gollum escapes from Thranduil in the text. The best description I could find from the event that doesn't come straight from LotR is from the Tale of Years:

Quote:
The Orcs assailed the realm of Thranduil, with orders to recapture Gollum; and the Lord of Morgul was sent forth openly to battle against Gondor. HR-SL-06.5 <Tale of Years {Around}At the {same} time{,} Thranduil {is}was attacked {and}, Gollum escape{s}d.> These things were done towards the end of June 3018.
6)
Quote:
, [Footnote: These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers.]
Have we included in the narrative at some point Balin's quest to re-take Moria? I couldn't find it anywhere.

7)
Quote:
The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants if he had been a true ally.
But doesn't Saruman basically tell the Riders where the Shire is earlier on?

Quote:
But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. That says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country.’ To his pleasure Saruman saw that even the Witch-king did not relish that. You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so.’
He tells them it is on the border of the seaward Elvish country, which is exactly where the Shire is. But he also tells them to go to Tharbad, which is only part of the way to the Shire. I'm not sure how to interpret Saruman's confrontation with the Riders. Is he deliberately trying to trick them?

8) At the very end of the chapter:

Quote:
It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (likely aided by /the Witch-king of/ Angmar)...
I think the date should be 3018. I don't have a copy of the Lord of the Rings Companion to check.

9)
Quote:
HR-SL-16.1 <Lord of the Rings Companion; Fog on the Barrow-Downs {the}The Witch-King had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself.>
This is a repeat of a sentence which occurs earlier right before HR-SL-14 . I think it fits better there, so we should remove HR-SL-16.1 .

10)
Quote:
{[}The Witch-king{] now knows}then knew who {is}was the Bearer, and {is}was greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who {seems}seemed to be a great power though apparently 'only a Ranger'.
Earlier Khamul tells him the Bearer is a small creature:

Quote:
But {[}he {]is}was told that Khamûl{] has}had discovered that the Bearer {is}was a very small spiritless creature with no pride or will power, and {is}was filled with terror at the approach of a Ringwraith.)
Is this a contradiction? Or is the Witch-King assuming that the "small creature" must have given the ring to Aragorn when they met?

11) Typos:

Quote:
just above Sam Gebir
"Sarn Gebir"

Quote:
He thought that the direction of the Riders to the Shire might hinder then
"hinder them"

Quote:
This {is}was much to dislike of {W'tongue}[Wormtongue]
"the dislike"

Quote:
{[}One{]} {takes}took road
"the road"

Quote:
...{[}he{] is}was uneasily aware that many enemies {are}were watching him and though none {has}had yet come with power to challenge him.
Again I don't have LotR Companion to check, but "and" should be removed for this sentence to grammatically make sense.

Quote:
{[}He{] is}was waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away {does}did not reach {[}the Witch-king{]} until the next day.
An "and" should be added:

Quote:
{[}He{] is}was waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away and {does}did not reach {[}the Witch-king{]} until the next day.
Quote:
The road between Bridge and Bree ...
"the Bridge and Bree"

Quote:
. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan.
I think this should be a question, i.e.:

Quote:
How {he had} had he come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan{.}?
Quote:
{[}The Witch-king and Khamûl{] perceive}perceived that Ring crossed Bridge...
"the Bridge"
gandalf85 is offline   Reply With Quote