The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

Findegil · 10-12-2011, 08:22 AM

At long last I have found the time answer:

§172: I agree that "winning the passes" is the same as "coming into Hithlum" and that therefore it is clear that after "the Orcs won many passes" the "Battle was joined at the very plains of Hithlum", but this redundance is already there in the text of the QS. In QS it is said, that "The Orcs won
many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim".What gives me pause is the "even" in this sentence. For me at least it suggests a further advance. This also agrees to my interpretation of the geography in which the plains of Hithlum reach fare to the north while Mithrim is the area directly around the lake.
But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here.

{Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation.

RB-SM-01: Agreed. Very elegant solution.

RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view.

RB-SM-06: I see your point. And I think you meant {southward}[westward]. But I am not absoulutley happy with that solution.
For one the Easterlings settled in Lothlan and in the Lands south of Maedrons March. Both seemd to be more northern teretories. But I agree that thier is some doubt about it since Ulfang follwed Caranthir, how dwelt upon Amon Ered fare in the south.
For two Hithlum is even further west then Brethil and for the folk of Hador some other reason is mentioned.
The reason that is hinted at by the sentence is that the Halethrim were not in strong alliance with an elvish lord activley searching communication with the Feanorians. The Halethrim had contact to Thingol and Fealgund. Both not very freindly with Maedron of Caranthir. Thus their was no meeting to be expacted between elvish lords of southern Beleriand (Thingol and Felagund) with the Feanorians in which manish followers (Halethrim and Easterlings) would meet as well.
Don't ask me how we should put that into our text. I have to think about that further.

Respectfuly
Findegil

10-12-2011, 08:22 AM	#78
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	At long last I have found the time answer: §172: I agree that "winning the passes" is the same as "coming into Hithlum" and that therefore it is clear that after "the Orcs won many passes" the "Battle was joined at the very plains of Hithlum", but this redundance is already there in the text of the QS. In QS it is said, that "The Orcs won many of the passes, and some came even into Mithrim".What gives me pause is the "even" in this sentence. For me at least it suggests a further advance. This also agrees to my interpretation of the geography in which the plains of Hithlum reach fare to the north while Mithrim is the area directly around the lake. But haveing considering this, I think that my understanding of the movement of Morgoth army has changed. Either Tolkien changed his idea about as well, or he made himself more clear in the GA account. That army of Orcs did not come over the plain of Anfauglith. It did come from the furthest North down the coast and crossed not the passes of Ered Wethrin but that of the coastal mountain range. In view of this I agree to stick completly to the account of GA here. {Haladin}[Halethrim] as name for the third clan of Dúnedain: I agree with Aiwendil that we should seek a way around the problem Gondowe has brought up. The same is true for the House of Hador in some way. Hador was no longer the leader of that clan when they entered Beleriand (that was Marach) but still he gave the clan its well known name. Thus Tolkien gave us an example how to deal with this situation. RB-SM-01: Agreed. Very elegant solution. RB-SM-05: I tend to use GA Version I and mention both Ulfang and Bor in the Footnote. The construct of a sentence in brakets and an added Footnote to it, seems rather blocky in my view. RB-SM-06: I see your point. And I think you meant {southward}[westward]. But I am not absoulutley happy with that solution. For one the Easterlings settled in Lothlan and in the Lands south of Maedrons March. Both seemd to be more northern teretories. But I agree that thier is some doubt about it since Ulfang follwed Caranthir, how dwelt upon Amon Ered fare in the south. For two Hithlum is even further west then Brethil and for the folk of Hador some other reason is mentioned. The reason that is hinted at by the sentence is that the Halethrim were not in strong alliance with an elvish lord activley searching communication with the Feanorians. The Halethrim had contact to Thingol and Fealgund. Both not very freindly with Maedron of Caranthir. Thus their was no meeting to be expacted between elvish lords of southern Beleriand (Thingol and Felagund) with the Feanorians in which manish followers (Halethrim and Easterlings) would meet as well. Don't ask me how we should put that into our text. I have to think about that further. Respectfuly Findegil